I pity those still labouring and suffering under the illusion of an Allegri of their own manufacture. Myself included! For I am prone to chide yet not castigate…as mentioned elsewhere of late; my angst and surprise is quickly assuaged, if not silenced, by the knowledge of Allegri formed in not only his first two seasons at the Juve helm, but before.
In short, he has a reputation for making a slow, sometimes haphazard start to the season. The reasons for this are up for debate. Perhaps he has never quite worked out a thorough pre-season conditioning or tactical plan for the ritiro, leaving the squad having to gather their rhythm both physically and mentally after the season has started, rather than before. Possibly Mister Max focuses more on the physical side with the aim of the hard work on the training ground early doors paying off smartly deeper into the season, the squad ideally peaking in fitness when all competitions become more serious, namely March and onwards.
Also worth mentioning are mitigating factors – at least in the last two season beginnings – for we suffered a horrendous injury crisis as the 15/16 campaign approached on the horizon, which whilst lessening further down the line, was a debilitating factor throughout our campaign. Add that to the departures of three world class players in Tevez, Pirlo and Vidal and the heroics performed by both Coach and the players deserves immense praise.
Many players were involved at the EUROs this summer just passed. Not only did this lessen (considerably in some cases) the rest and recovery time after a gruelling season but it also interfered with pre-season training. Allegri had to try substitute players with youth options in order to begin working on tactics, which is a tough task by any measure. By which I mean by example; he tried to integrate the new signings into our 3-5-2 system replacing Mandzukic with Cerri, Khedira with Kastanos etc.
And finally there are injuries to mention. Mandragora may well have been sent out on loan had he not fractured his bones, yet the fact remains he is the only natural DM in our squad, and with the failure to sign Witsel, he would surely have been considered for the senior squad. The mainstay in that role, Marchisio, remains on the road to recovery and could be nearing selection in late October. It remains to be seen how long it will take Il Principino to return to match sharpness after such a lengthy lay-off yet I have great faith in his strongest asset; namely his mentality.
Aside from Marchisio (who is capable, sometimes superb) and Rolando, both injured, we have no other natural DM in the squad. Which for me has been the major problem this season to date. Allegri had hoped that Pjanic or Lemina could play there. They can, but the Bosnian lacks the hustle and the Gabonese lacks the experience or composure. In fact, the only player who has looked comfortable in that integral part of the 3-5-2 has been Hernanes, and that was against a weak, even cowardly Cagliari who were focused on damage limitation from the first whistle.
As regular juvefc regular dar black recently outlined – the balance of the midfield is the major issue at present. I am unsure if it is the presence of Big Sami which causes most woe in the middle, for technically he is extremely gifted and his reading of the game is top drawer. My opinion is that dar black is spot on, and the lack of balance is down to the absence of a natural DM. More on such thoughts in due course…Suffice to say, after the midfield finally looked balanced mid-week, Allegri decided to once again change it.
We lined up not only with Manduzkic playing as a second striker but Lemina back in the DM role, after impressing in a more offensive Khedira role on Wednesday. Rugani came into the defence to offer Chiellini a break, just after the veteran had begun to look like he was gaining rhythm…In short, those who upped their game in the 4-0 drubbing of the Sardinians, were then benched or moved out of position. Other than Higuain, yet he had his strike partner removed and had we a natural CF in the squad other than Mandzukic (who was playing), no doubt he would have also been given a break…Higuain is gaining sharpness and fitness in spite of Allegri’s rotation policy.
The game began with the false dawn of Higuain snatching at a half volley on 10 seconds. After which proceedings plunged into biting fouls and the first signs of bad blood between the sides. Alves played a poor pass which forced Big Leo into taking a yellow for the side, yet the replay suggested very little contact was made. Soon after, former Juve player Goldaniga entered the book for a similar foul, before Mandzukic got up close and personal far too easily after a series of niggly fouls reached his heels; the Croatian earning a pointless yellow for his poor temperament.
Despite the fact that we were creating chances with Higuain mightily close to rounding the keeper after a gorgeous ball from Pjanic, Mandzukic missing a gilt edged chance in the air, and others finding themselves in decent positions in and around the box, the unsportsmanlike conduct of the home side was spoiling the game almost as much as our own ineptitude mainly in midfield.
Diamanti is a conniving ferret of a footballer, disgusting in his playacting, undignified in his eagerness to see other’s booked. And it was no surprise when a slight touch from Alves caused the italian veteran to collapse as if shot. Dani knew he has been done so took the card with a shake of the head and half smile. Soon after, Rugani found himself chasing the ball with Balogh, and as he reached the target and pushed it to safety he came off second best from the tackle. Down and clearly hurt, the Palermo player’s reaction was to demand a yellow. Absolutely appalling behaviour. Which was unfortunately common throughout the game from the sicilians. And clearly part of their tactics. Still, if it works and it is legal, why not eh?
Cuadrado came on to replace Rugani, who had been playing confidently and powerfully. About time we saw the Colombian who can prove a rather divisive figure in the juvefc community, with opinions on his value at best, rather varied.
The breakthrough – deserved on the balance of play and chances created – came not long after the restart. Alves smashing a speculative drive from range towards goal which took a wicked deflection of the heel of Goldaniga to wrong-foot the keeper. Hope sprang from the celebrations that we could go on and secure the 3 points, grab the game by the scruff of the neck and own it. Yet this wasn’t to be.
Palermo continued to push us back with 9/10 men behind the ball, aim for the counter to salvage a point and we grew less accurate in our passing. Asamoah did little to improve matters. Chances came for Manduzkic once again, who also had a goal ruled out for offside, and Higuain was unlucky late on. However, we failed to convert any of our opportunities, which coupled with our horridly unbalanced midfield led to a shaky final ten, with the home side pushing hard. It was a sigh of relief when the final whistle came, not because we were hanging on, but because the match was dire. The closest Palermo came to threatening was a handful of crosses which nobody got near. Other than which, they conned the ref, hacked us down and played extremely defensive. Which almost worked a treat.
Player Ratings
Buffon – One pearoller of a shot to save throughout. Could have brought a book to read. N/A
Bonucci – Still not quite himself, yet was barely involved as Palermo refused to attack. 6
Rugani – Looked lively, confident and eager to push up and make up the numbers in midfield. Such a shame for the injury. 7
Barzagli- As with Bonucci, barely noticed as barely required. 6
Sandro – An odd match for the player who for me has been our most consistent attacking threat this term alongside Dybala, for Alex was rarely to be found with the ball at his feet. Palermo made efforts down their left as we did down our right, with very little involvement of the opposite flank. Whether this was a tactical ploy from the home or away side I could not tell. Yet it was very much the shape of the game for the entirety of the match. 6
Alves – Scored his second in a week, cut inside and tried to make things happen, put some intelligent balls into the final third and was unlucky to see yellow when tricked by that curly haired fuck Diamanti. Still yet to convince he is as solid and dependable defensively as Lichstiner. Nonetheless a positive showing. 7.
Khedira – Hardly seen for the first 45 other than in brief glimpses in between the ocean of pink around him. Was more pro-active in the second period yet failed to impose himself. I am increasingly less keen on his CMR role combining with the movement (forward runs) of a second striker. I agree with Dar Black on this score, in that his inclusion pulls the midfield out of shape to leave gaps and frenzied defensive efforts to cover, even against hardly the greatest sides. A rethink is required. 5.5
Lemina – Inconsistent passing, poor positional play and failed to create much of value. He can look a decent player one moment and then play an atrocious pass the next. Nowhere near ready to play a steady role in a position as important to the side as DM. He lacks the reading of the game, the composure and the consistency. 5.5
Pjanic – Generally tidy on the ball and was useful from set pieces, and tested the keeper on a couple of occasions. However, he was unable to build on his fine performance mid-week. Still finding his place in our colours yet his quality is beginning to shine through more constantly. 6
Mandzukic – Zero connection with Higuain, had two great chances to score and another ruled offside. I wish we had kept Zaza and sold Mandzukic, for at least Simone offers power and menace. Mario cannot be expected to be super sharp as he has been playing second fiddle (and rightly so) to the Argentine arrival from Naples. However, he generally slows down the play, has never been prolific and will be forced to accept the bench more than the field as the season wears on. What is a concern is if Hugauin is injured we have no natural goal-scorer on the bench. Valiant effort, yet little end product. 6
Higuain – Buzzed around the field like a killer wasp desperate to sting. His fitness is returning swiftly, his one touch and link-up play is a joy to behold. Unlucky with several efforts on goal, yet again he is finding the spaces, forcing the keeper into decent saves. Lacking the service, especially in the second half, it was a bother to see him heading deep to find the ball as the rest of the side retreated into their shell to accept a scrappy 0-1 victory against one of the weakest sides in the league. He deserved better. 7
Cuadrado – Woeful. I had not missed him in the slightest. He beat no opponent, put us defensively in jeopardy on several occasions, halted the progress of the impressive Alves, produced a number of wretchedly lame passes and was guilty of poor decision making when finding himself in the box with the ball at his feet. This was a poor second debut. I will hold fire on too much despondency as he deserves the chance to work his way into top form, yet what is that top form? He really offered nothing of value in his hour on field, other than just the one recovery in defence. Other than which he was horrid to watch. Lacking invention, confidence, even the one element of his game hard to fault; acceleration and pace. Why the devil did we bring him back? 4
Asamoah – Given 20 minutes to blow some wind into our flagging sails, yet continued his cringeworthy form with poor distribution and worrying inability to make anything of note happen. And then the poor chap’s troublesome knee gave way, the source of his injury nightmares of the last season or so. I wish him well in his recovery but on the generally dire form he has shown since returning to the ranks, it may be safer for the team for him to be injured. 5
Reasons for bother
We were largely abject. Rarely stringing together more than a handful of passes other than at the back where we were rarely under any meaningful pressure. The midfield was disjointed with Lemina yet again failing to convince. Our quality came from individuals, nothing seemed fluid or cohesive in the moments when we found route to goal scoring opportunities.
Missing out on Witsel was the single biggest failure of the mercato and it continues to haunt us. For only Hernanes has shown any comfort in the role thus far this season.
The injury to Rugani leaves us short at the back for the Dinamo tie yet the youngster was walking once off and all reports point to something innocuous (UPDATE – The poor lad is out for 45 days with a ligament strain!). However it will be interesting to see what Allegri does mid-week. Set up the side for 3-5-2 and hope no defenders are injured? For we have no other fit CB in the european squad…Who can say eh? He might surprise us with a 4-4-2, yet that could mean Cuadrado plays, which is a worry as he was atrocious.
Khedira had a lifeless showing, give or take a couple of compelling bursts into the box.
Essentially we are terribly disorganized in the middle of the park and carrying too many players bang out of form.
Reasons to be cheerful
We kept our second clean sheet on the trot and remain top of the league.
Higuain is continuing to sharpen, run harder and faster and to connect with his new team-mates more fluidly.
“We have to take the points and two consecutive clean sheets, but cannot think this was the real Juventus.”
“When we misplace as many passes as this, it doesn’t matter who is on the field, we are Juve players and cannot do that.” (Leo)
It is this lack of concentration and quality which feels horrid to endure and I am pleased the Bonucci relates. We are simply not playing as a Juve team should and I have not seen a team produce so many errors on simple passing, since the Del Neri/Ciro debacles, when we had a far weaker side, yet were comparably disjointed.
The defence is improving yet we still look a little wild at the back from crosses and corners. Still, two clean sheets on the trot is encouraging. Up top, Higuain and Dybala are in fine fettle. The flanks are well covered and vibrwnt, with Sandro, Alves and Lichsteiner all contributing at a high level. Clearly the problem is the midfield.
Although we played very well in patches against Sassuolo, when Lemina was in the DM role, I believe this was largely due to the opponents missing their key players and moreso that we took our chances. We were three up within 30 minutes due to some clinical finishing.
Against Cagliari we also scored early and were 3-0 before half time. The difference in that game was that the midfield appeared balanced throughout. Lemina was much improved in a more offensive role at RCM and Pjanic had space and time to focus on finding space in the pockets between midfield and attack and pick out some delightful passes. The man in the middle was Hernanes, who recycled the ball intelligently and swiftly, read the flow of the incoming attacks and affected the tempo of the game from deep. He was also reliable in the air, never found out of position and got forward late to drive at goal from range with aplomb.
Yes, it must assuredly be noted that Cagliari were fearful and lacking any sense of adventure. It must also be noted that this combination in midfield, in fact all over the first XI, felt the most balanced system deployed this campaign. We carried no-one.
I do not find any value in dropping Hernanes after perhaps his finest showing in our colours, let alone changing the midfield which worked so well.
More frustration will come and the season remains larval and still brimming with hope and expectation.
Other than the tactical chopping and changing, which precludes any momentum or blossoming of form, I cannot help but return to the words of last week, written after the Inter nightmare. I suggested, I believe, that at times it seemed like a disease was spreading through the squad. Players normally proficient at the basics and more, were misplacing passes, kicking the ball straight into touch or to our opponents for no obvious reason other than lack of focus, drive or belief. Remnants of this disease remain in the ranks, and must be removed hastily.
With a deep sigh I leave this alone and head off to watch Match of the Day, but not before adding some positivity to what is largely a cynical yet accurate report.
We are certain to improve. The season is young and nothing is won or lost in September. Given we are top of the league when playing generally disjointed, abject football riddled with individual errors, winning games on moments of individual brilliance or good fortune, try to imagine how well we could be playing when everything starts to fit into place…That is the only question we must be asking ourselves. Will it come right before anything is lost? The beginning of the answer to that question will be found on Tuesday evening in Croatia, then in France three weeks later.
Allegri can rightfully state that he would rather win whilst playing badly than to draw whilst playing well, for that is his job. And would I really be sulking in virtual ink if we had taken even one or two more of the myriad of real chances in front of goal conjured? Perhaps not. I simply see more missing than merely the conversion of the multiple openings we are making each game.
Forza Juve
Will it come right before anything is lost? – million dollar question GP. I worry that it may be.
We suck with Sami! So let’s drop him and go with the balance we had on Wednesday night. I know it’s difficult to drop the bigger names and especially when they should be working out positively, but it’s not at the moment with Sami. You can only work in the realm of reality, hiw things actually are rather than how things should be.
I don’t want to keep banging on about how I had the jitters about our midfield before the season started (& terrified once Witsel failed to show), but at a time when every man and his dog were giving us the CL trophy seemingly based on the purchase of Gonzo alone I really have not felt good about it ,- it looks wrongs on paper, and plays wrong in reality. UNTIL Wednesday’s match, when it looked right, played right.
Sami can’t play as starter until we have the defensive cover to shield those holes he leaves GP. Not his fault that injuries abound, and mercato purchases were not forthcoming. But it is what it is. Thankfully we are in a soft CL, because right now you fear what BM, RM and Barca would do to us.
They would fuck us slow deep and hard. Especially B and bm.
Rather sexually charged, old chum, but I must unfortunately concur. We are nowhere near ready to lock horns with any of the elite teams. Munich, Barca and Man City would humiliate our present state of form and selection, yet all is not lost…we have time on our side and the future remains one of hope and belief.
Also, I followed your mention of the teacher from Wake in Fright, seems the flick is something of a cult classic…and I shall watch it next week along with another by the same director. One of my work colleagues here in the corporate trenches suggested the drunk doctor from the other film of a similar shape and look.
Yes thats right.
There has to come to moment at Juve when it makes CLICK. In their heads. Then Juve will be among the best.
We all have to be patient.
I think against Dinamo this moment of inner freedom will start into the squad.
Ps: You are living in Australia and havent seen Wake in Fright?
Im a film student living in Germany and thinks thats a marvellous film. See it.
I suspect that we will not find anywhere near our best until Marchisio is re-integrated into the squad…
Indeed I was marooned here many moons ago through amorous misadventure which left me either heading back to the motherland with a proven harlot wench or remaining her with her 8 month old puppy, the hellhound Oscar. I chose the latter due to paternal obligations.
As for the film…only the old folk here know of it, as after the 70s the americanisation of Australia took hold and now everything is american, even the manner in which the aussies produce TV and Film. there is little to nothing of the rugged quality of Fright left, other than in the hillbilly towns in the middle of nowhere and in Queensland.
I will watch the film during my soon to commence break from the citadel when I shall aim my two wheeled devil steed towards the wilderness and hit launch, spend a fair few days in a renovated shack on the side of a valley, with sumptuous open fire, bath on the verandah out back where I bathed and embraced the rising steam mixing with the soft, powdery falling rain a few months back, the dark clouds and thunder fighting with the gaze of our nearest and dearest star for prominence in the heavens, and the rainbow which appeared became me…
We will find a way without Marchi.
Im sure of that.
But when hes finally fit. Oh lord things will come…..
Interesting fact about Wake …. same americanisation began here in germany too. Its a fucking mess.
Your place at the outback sounds nice. Are u able to watch juve there?
Dar Seriously I don´t what the heck are you talking about. First time i heard it sounded right, and maybe when we have played pure 3-5-2 might be some truth to it but… Did you even watch last game?
What you are accusing Khedira here of seems completely baseless: I´ll ellaborate on this in another post but.
What you are caliming here to have seen I din´t see it last game PRETTY MUCH AT ALL.
You are calling for one of our best and essential players to be taken off the starting XI with baseless accusations. Because what you claim to have seen in previous games didn´t even make an appearance AT LL LAST GAME, so i think you can´t argue to have proven or have confirmed or verifyied that theory last game because because if you did I might actually say you are outright lying.
Sorry Dar but I DON´T BUY IT. You claim to be Kjedira at the epicenter of some structural issue which i pretty much don´t see at all,.. And Speciallly Didn´t see against Palermo.
So I will counter you on this one and will firmly stand on saying KHEDIRA MUST BE IN THE 1ST CHOICE STARTING XI, even on a 3-5-2. And even in Serie A
It is just bogus to call such quality to be wasted on the bench, specially when we are thin on midfielders.
Hopefully max doesn´t buy this theory. i am confident he won´t specially since he values and admires What Khedira brings to the table. Because from max´s interviews one can gather he thinks khedira is one of the smartest, if not the smartest player in our squad, the one with the best understanding of the game.
I am actually in awe TGP actually agrees with this nonsense.
I AM SORRY DAR BUT I DON´T BUY IT.
KHEDIRA IS NOT A PROBLEM!!!!!!!!! LET ALONE A STRUCTURAL ONE. I JUST DON´T BUY IT.
Are you okay, Seb? Your impassioned virtual squeals are leaning towards at best, a semblance of discourtesy unusual and certainly frowned upon in the community.
Your repeated reference to the 3-5-2 is wide of the mark. We rarely appear anything rigidly 3-5-2 on the field, only on a screen. This is nothing new, yet it does not change the fact that we ostensibly field three central midfielders, whose duties and movements are more often than not the same for each role. The DM acts as a pivot, screens the defence, allows the wingbacks to fly forward with more assurance and also allows the other two CMs to focus on the offensive phase.
This is why the DM role is so important, whether you see 3-5-2 or 4-3-3 or any other variant of the same. It is the pivot on which the team moves and dictates the tempo. This player must be there to screen, to receive the ball from the back, to stride forward and pick out passes when possible, recycle the ball intelligently. It is arguably the most important part of the outfield line-up for when we fail in such an integral position on the field, the midfield becomes disjointed, the service to the flanks and up top becomes laboured and holes begin to appear.
This last point is what Dar black was making, and I agree entirely. Khedira has been playing much higher up the field this term, which places more pressure and reliance upon the DM. Partly because the right middle channel becomes rather empty, as Alves pushes also high and Barzagli or Rugani (our RCB) are required to push up into the space, which leaves a gap behind them. Also, Khedira is useful defensively, for his reading of the game is of a high level. Not so much in terms of making tackles or interceptions but blocking space of likely attack paths and runners. Vidal used to play a true box to box role in the same position, covering at the back as much as adding numbers in the final third. Sami has been more focused on the latter this season to date.
As I wrote in the piece above, and was banging on about during the mercato; Witsel was a very important signing. Without him, and without Marchisio, we have nobody naturally fitting the prominent role of fulcrum in the side. It is this that Dar Black is using as a foundation for his analysis, and it is one with which I agree.
To get the best out of both Pjanic and Khedira we require a strong and sturdy defensive element in the midfield. Which has yet to be found, with only the one outing of Hernanes in the role providing any semblance of a balanced midfield for the entirety of a game. It is not much to go on, but all we have, at least those of us of the opinion that the whole side worked well in that shape with those players, hence the suggestion of adopting the same in the near future in order to learn if it works with other opponents.
You appear to be making mountains out of molehills, comrade…and sincerely I hope all is well with you in all that matters most.
Oh well poet. thorough answer, which is always welcome. And above all thanks for caring about my well being, which thanks to my God is as healthy, lucid and sharp, as usual.
I hope it to be the same on your end although from what i have read from you lately I infer is as bright as ever too, because those last pieces you have written are some well done writing , inspiring, and encouraging pieces.
Now I answer you. Lol, poet to this point I am starting to think whenever i speak or comment here to some or even many my words land as if they were cantonese (apart from the fact I don´t make short comments and some might not even care to read, which is fine by me). So that they are thoroughly misunderstood, plain ignored, and even condemned or criticised, as have been also opinions from others, which is also fine by me except for the fact I always have to explain and not only that but even defend things to me are so evident and crystal clear, which are coherent and which I try my best to solidly substantiate.
Now first thing i don´t think at all of my comments or ideas as squeals, and I even think you calling them that Is something I might as well frown upon or take as offensive, still I respect you a lot and happen to have a thick armor for that, so still I´ll let this one pass and forget it, and will this once just convince myself “squeal” might actaully not be that offensive in British english (even if it were).
Now I don´t know what is it you actually find offensive (And would like for it to be pointed out) since I may often talk harsh but even so everytime I try not to come across as offensive.
Now as long as Dar Black himself to whom I reply doesn´t find it to be so then I´ll be pleased I achieved that objective. I say this because i think actually disagreeing with someone and not sweet talking things might actually be taken as offensive which I would just say would boild down to a bit of a culture clash since it might entirely be possible Europeans just happen to sweet talk things more often than us Westerners, and specially since I might even lay on the side of more direct talkers even to western standards. So maybe that is just a collateral but expeced effect of partaking on online commenting on a globalised world. But hey enough time around here and I might pick up some European customs for all it matters.
Now to Juve matters
Please don´t think for a second I don´t value your unique insights on my beloved Madama since I grasp 100% when you ask for an enforcer in midfield (which we all wish had been Witsel), still whenever you say it I take it as a defensive worry which is a greater worry for you than it is to me, because as its seems I have not yet made as clear my point as I should… whenever we field 3-5-2 we have:
– 3 centerbacks
– More often than not at least a somewhat defensive wingback (Evra(Lich)
– A Regista/CDM usually Lemina who even not a master of defense is at least a physical presence
– Also every juve player except Higuain retreats when we are defending, meaning we have 10 field players to some degree defending AT ALL TIMES.
– Now whenever a CM goes into advanced positions, doesn´t always the other one stay somewhat behind?
… menaing, if Khedira happens to run forward a la Vidal we always have at least 5 to 6 players with pure defensive duties.
– 3 Centerbacks
– The CDM (Lemina/Hernanes) who at least defends positionally a la Pirlo.
– At least one Wingback (more often than not the defensive one)
– At least one Mezzala (the one who happens to stay back when the other one “often Khedira” runs forward a la Vidal)
Now that is 6 to 7 players available for defending AT ALL TIMES. Isn´t that already enough that now you and Dar Balck call for a 7th defender (being Khedira, and even worst, him not being Khedira because you are calling Khedira out of the starting XI?)
Really?
7 men defending? are we porto 2004 or Greece on Euro 2006?
meaning we only have 2,3 players at best attacking at all times? the 2 forwards + a wingback (the attacking one say Alvesfor instance )at best?
I think right there is where you always lose me on that one.
So what then are we going to attack only with 2, 3 players at best AT ALL TIMES?
Poet i am starting to think you are a pure defensive catennaccio, Park the Bus kind of Juve fan.
Because If it were me I would be more than pleased to have maximum 5 players with pure defensive duties at all times (that´s 2 players less than you), say:
– the 3 centerbacks
– the CDM
– only 1 winger
So whenever I hear you or Dar or anyone else repeat the case, repeat the same arguments in favour of an overly cautious 3-5-2 for EVERY SINGLE GAME asi if all games were the same, I think that narrative rather tahn helo Juve harms Juve, because I even dare say it to me doesn´t seem far from flirting with 3-5-2 fundamentalism.
Why? because with all due respect you and Dar, and even many here at JuveFC don´t even try and find middle ground, a gray area, a sort of Sinthesis come out of your thesis and my antithesis to see if actually there might be ideas of some value on the other camp.
But No, truth is much different than that, whenever anyone happens to voice a perspective, an opinion, an idea (because some of us just happen to think, believe, expect and want something quite different from what the main contributors believe) that happens to not fall along the lines or the framework the main contributors of this site have, you just happen to criticise, disregard, underestimate, ignore, discredit (even on feature pieces), try and debunk (although failing by a wide mark), and specially if voiced with some vehemence even take as offense, or as something to be frowned upon (lol really, are you serious? Is taht how it goes here at JuveFC, I think , we can all be better than that, i think I am actually talking to adults who I think could have a thick skin to endure even a glimpse of actual dialogue or debate, specially me being younger than many of you I bet).
Because seriously poet, when you or Dar or Belgian [RAC has not entirely displayed glimpses of fundamentalism but heck he seems drawn to it, specially when it includes as a perk the praise and like someone once called it “the worship” (well maybe I think it was Dar) you all seem to give each other when anyone happens to take views you just ahve for granted, as gospel.]
Because sincerely poet I think whenever anyone posts anything here at JuveFC you the official contributors expect us visitors to just take things for granted, to read and accept everything you say without questioning, to bow down to a line of thought without questioning (even if at matches some Juve fans like me see something slightly, quite, or even totally different), it seems you expect us to have a herd mentality of just following evryone else just because, to have people who just reinforce the line of thought and don´t dare questioning It seems you enjoy people who either have a lazy approach to actually think for themselves, or people who just happen to believe in your views because… `You are supposed to know better, you are supposed to be pundits, to be knowledgeable´ but honestly poet if you expect all people to be along the same line, you better make sure it is the right one (and I think you are not doing that, that you are holding to a line of thought which doesn´t represent us all who happen to visit this site), otherwise only those who happen to agree with you will take anything you say seriously, but all those who happen to think different, to expect different, to see something different might even make you lose credibility and even lose respect.
Because i tell you poet since I came to this site I have admired you and respected you. Now maybe when I first posted here my thoughts either fell within your line of thought or maybe you just didn´t notice that they didn´t so I had noone criticising them and giving me klak, taking me as offensive, or frowning upon me, because I seemed to abide by the line, maybe only down to the fact I didn´t coment often.
But since I started commenting more often and vehemently WHAT I SEE and only I have received from you and most on your camp Criticism, flak, disparage attempts to debunk. I might actually start to lose the credibility you once inspired me and even a bit of the respect I have for some of you guys. make no mistake I will never lose the respect i ahve for all of you guys, but still that idea of talking to open minded and knowledgeable peopel might actually water down.
Because I´ll tell you poet i am not here to convince anyone (I don´t need it), nor am here to be convinced by anyone (like a lazy sheep who doesn´t think but just follows the herd even if on road to abyss).
Because another thing along the lines of all this is you guys often seem to employ a double standard. Whenever anyone reinforces the line of thought and abides by the line he is cheerfully praised and the worship party begins) even if such assertions are completely baseless or unchecked.
But whenever anyone happens to disagree with the line of thought on your camp, even if substantiated with facts, even if laid respectfully or vehemently, even
When you abide by the line it is ok to voice your take, to voice your complacency or voice your concerns (Like saying Khedira must be taken out of the starting XI) everything is just fine, everything is just ok, we are a class act and regal in our proceedings, everyone is knowledgeable and season in football affairs, everyone thinks and talks as a pundit who helps Juve.
…but when you happen to disagree in your take, in voicing your complacency or your concerns (Like even hinting Max should be replaced, because you have to respect if a few or many actually think of it or are convinced) everything is not ok, we are not a class act, we are not regal, we are Anti-Juventino´s we are Fantasy Football type of Juve fans, unknowledgeable people who squeal, talk plain idiocy and lunacy and harms Juve, and are downvoted or even as you say reprehended by you?
I mean with all due respect poet, cmon, really? is that your best face? because with all due respect it leaves a lot to be desired, actually i expect better from you and yoru camp who ahppen to be the face of this site. I actually expect more from all you boys as on your camp you seem to expect and even demand so much more from us dissenters.
Because a lesser man or a weaker one would just stop commentingand visiting the site at all.. period. (Even if you all guys have a commendable forum and he would miss out on such unique insights, well mostly entrenched on 3-5-2 and ultra defensive catenaccio, but still valuable enough). A lesser man would just do that seeing the narrative becomes quite unidimensional, and monolithic and he even has it taken against him if he happens to disagree. i mean who would put up to that? only a man of Character.
So no, despite what you may think or not think about what i comment I won´t just stop visiting or commenting on the site, I won´t just leave only because I am afraid to be taken as dissenter or minority and being targeted. Because although still young i have some life experience and at this point there is little to nothing that can intimidate me. So as I ahve said before if you don´t ahppen to agree with me you can just ignore my comments and also I will welcome any reply you may give them. I am always open for adult dialogue and debate, between men of character. Also I think Dar can make a case for himself and reply to me without need of you poet of actually jumping in. Still it is always welcome your input.
Now about your last comment which reads:
“You appear to be making mountains out of molehills, comrade”
All I want to say now about it is, you can brace yourself because the biggest of mountains yet is coming this way.. coming the way of the JuveFC comment section
I have my take on the Palermo game almost ready, and you can bet it may not be what most here at JuveFc want or expect.
you downplay
I concede your knowledge of 3-5-2 is unparalleled. Still from listening to you and most other here at JuveFC I think I have quite adecent grasp on ti to actually know what Juve is actually doing on the field, and to compare it to other systems used across alll of Europe. And to me 3-5-2 is not the holy grail, not maybe not even of catennaccio and I think it is just a tool with its pros and cons, with its objectives, with its requirements, and its own aesthetics.
Others, myself included, very much enjoy the warm and familiar manner in which we express opinions, many of which often differ and it is from the differences in opinion that such quality debate emerges. Absent of angst or insults.I come here to rub virtual shoulders with those of my kin, of the same passion for Juve. To discuss, to learn, to peek at the world of black and white through the eyes and hearts of others.
I am here to discuss football, and anything else which finds its way into my mind whilst I am trailing a path of virtual ink across the screen. However, I have not the time nor interest in wading through the countless accusations and personal attacks you have outlined above which smack of lunacy. I doubt in turn that anyone else wishes to find such drivel here at juvefc.
I will remove myself from this nuisance. And will refrain from engaging with you in the future, unless calm and respectable dialogue can ensue.
Fair enough
I think you are imagining or confusing a clique of cronyistic thoughts with a fellowship of learned likeminded thoughts?
If people don’t agree with you Seb, then accept it. I do! Firing off accusations like above and throwing your toys out of the pram in petulance is a pretty poor state of affairs, and has no place in this community. It has started to creep in with a couple of other people too in recent weeks, and really needs to stop now. You also overdo the capitalisation of words for impact sir if I may say…. They can be used sparingly, but it looks like you are trying to shout your argument at me and others – are you? Why? Do you not believe in what you are saying to the point that you need to appear to be shouting to give more clout? Capitalisation of words does not give them any more substance…
Now to footballing matters:
“Guys on your camp don´t even try to find middle ground, at least lets make it 6 people defending, not 7 to 8 like you say, not 5 to 4 like I say.”
I have read your thoughts on the team formation and selections, and I don’t agree at all that the dropping of Khedeira is to propose a huge defensive 7 / 8 player shield. I simply don’t understand where you are getting that from. In fact that tells me you have not even done the math, never mind understand where the problems lie with the formation as it is and the players Max usually picks to play in it.
So lets count up attacking minded / duty outfield players if Sami is dropped, and Hernanes sits in with Lemina in CM / DM with Pjanic as trequartisa:
1.Alves
2.Sandro
3.Pjanic
4.Higuain
5.Dybala
So that is 5, minus Gigi leaves us 5 attackers and 5 defenders out of the 10 outfielders by my calculations.
Isn’t that the perfect balance Seb – Five and five? Where is the defensive 6/7/8 coming from you accuse us of pushing for? Where? Have you just made that up…….
Like TGP if you are going to make stuff up and throw around nonsense like that then I too don’t want to get involved in conversations with you Seb. Sorry. Best agree to disagree and not comment on each others posts.
LOL!! Are you alright Seb!
– No, I don’t say things for effect. I am 46 years old chap (yes that old), and you grow out of that sort of thing.
– Yes, I watch the games on replay (often highlights all though not man of those at the minute…), + I read the very thorough pre and post match reviews of TGP and Enrico and other sources. I base my thoughts & opinions on that. Oh, and the small matter of watching football for 38 of those 46 years I have been on the planet.
I’m sensing that you don’t buy it! Hmmm, You seemed to have changed your tune. That’s not what you were saying the other night on the Cagliari pre-match thread ** after ** the match… “- A Mid trio without Khedira might be more stable, balanced or reliable. With better symmetry or geometry”
I said my idea was a theory as to why our midfield is not performing at the moment, nothing more or less. And that the Palermo game if Max reverted back to type could be viewed as control test vs the excellent performance against Cagliari where the midfield played very well thanks to Hernanes performance / and the role he played in a midfield that allowed Lemina and Pjanic to change the role they played. Effectively to see if Sami’s re-introduction took us back 3 steps (as GP’s headline states).
Well we did go back those 3 steps, and the common link to our struggling performances is the midfield mostly, and that appears when Sami plays.
Now, nothing is ever so simple and there may be some other reasons as well, but there IS undoubteldly a link with him and the way he operates and the formation that Max uses when he is playing. So far from proving my theory wrong, the Palermo match brought it closer to reality from what I can see.
But as always Seb ‘other opinions are available on the internet’, and if you have a different one then fine. Fill your boots… But I am sticking to mine, and I notice that others share it to some degree or other. So maybe I am not too far off the truth…. But I am always happy to be proved wrong. So far I have not been though. Maybe against Zagreb I will be?
You are partialy right from my point of view. Sami should not start as a CMR in a 3-5-2 without a worldclass DM to cover for him,that is a fact, at least if he continues concentrating more on the forward box of his box to box role. He could though start in a 4-3-3 since the flag will be covered from two players. So the times he pushes forward, either the wingback or the winger could theoreticaly return to a more central role, ala Guardiola to cover for him, while in the meantime the player left on the wing will cover for a counter attack from the side. What Allegri should ask himself is if he wants to trie to force the result of every single game this year and stick to 3-5-2, or if he is going to give the chance to more talented players play their game in a 4-3-3 of sorts. Our midfielders are limited (apart from Pjanic), why not take the creative part from them and push it forward to the wings,where Pjaca and Dybala are capable of creating havoc in any defence, thus pushing the other team to a deeper defence role and taking some of the burdain to defend and create of from our midfield?
I very much agree with the Mandzukic sentiment. I have been saying the same since the Mercato, we should have sold Mario and kept Zaza.
Not blaming Mandzukic for a bad game here, but I honestly dont know what he brings to the team.
Im just happy we got the victory and I hope for better performances in the near future.
I would have been happy to see them both leave the ranks, James. Yet we had no obvious replacement for either lined up.
And no, myself in turn can never fault Mario’s industry, for he would happily die for the cause, yet given we do not play a system set up for a slow, towering centre forward his value to the side is diminishing rather swiftly. Perhaps we will address the situation in January. It seems we were interested in Barbosa, yet a player of potential from Brazil is unlikely to move to Europe to play from the bench, if at all.
If we can keep Higuain fit, we will be fine, but I do worry what will transpire if he is injured for a lengthy period.
I like Mario Gp, and although he is typical of his type of player I think his attitude of fight and die for the cause is to be welcomed. I didn’t see that from Zaza yesterday (or at all so far) in yet another dire West Ham performance.
The irons are cursed! Though to be fair they were shipping a lot of goals in the tail end of last season. I cannot help but feel a sense of justice, for they do not deserve that stadium yet I suppose something had to be done with that modern new stadium…They were immensely reliant on Payet, and if you mark him well enough, you blunt them up front and their defence has been appalling for a long time. Why the devil did they sell Tomkins?
Cuadrado, even in his first season with us, was a huge liability. He’s not good enough to play for a club of our standard. And yet some Juventini are still delighted to see that we added him to our ranks? It’s an absolute joke.
He shows alot of danger but can’t deliver the finishing touch. That’s very frustrating both for him and us. But yes he does not have what it takes to play on the highest level.
I don’t understand Allegri to be honest. Some of the decisions he has made seem bizarre to say the least.. Clearly Pjaca is a better all around player than Cuadrado at this point. I’ve set it since the beginning of the season, Mandzukic is good on set pieces but that is it folks, he can’t sprint if his life depended on it. The game was painful to watch to say the least, I rarely saw any bright spots to be honest. In games like these, Max seems a bit clueless and stubborn in his ways. A smart tactician such as Guardiola is constantly changing the formation throughout the game to fit the needs of the team. In games like these 3-5-2 just cloggs the hell out the midfield and we often are just making horizontal passes the whole game. What team was missing was clearly pace, there was not one notable counter attack throughout the game. Lemina is pissing me off with his inconsistency but it will take time folks, I said that he is going to be to be the revelation of the season and I am still sticking to that. In the end, we won the game by a deflection… very hard to appreciate 3 points in that manner. Now we should expect the team to grind out the errors and adjust going forward. Personally, I have never been a fan of cuadrado. Yes he had his moments last year there is no doubt about that folks but there is stiffer competition this year. I would personally use him and mandzukic as super subs for the most part.
On a side note, Lirola had an assist today. Thats 1 goal and 1 assist in 4 games folks, our future RB looks very classy to say the least!!
I suspect, Jas, like myself that you close to understand Allegri, yet simply disagree with his reasoning. It doesn’t surprise me to ponder that like the rest of us, he saw a fine showing against Cagliari, decided Hernanes seems the best fit presently at DM so saved him for the Zagreb game. As he wished to save Chiellini and Dybala. Perhaps he had expected to give Pjaca some minutes yet his hand was a little forced with the injury to Rugani. He may have been thinking Palermo is a game we have enough quality to win even playing without several of our better players, and whilst it was horrid to watch, none of us can turn around and say that he was proved wrong…
If Lemina is given the chance in a more offensive midfield berth, I can see that he has the potential to come good and prove his value more consistently, yet not at DM. My take on Allegri is that he knows this, and is giving the youngster games to get sharp and get used to the side as he very much does plan on making him a regular of sorts in the future.
Indeed, young Pol is faring well at Sassuolo, our relations with that club must continue as they serve both their needs and ours in turn. I believe he is very much ear-marked to return to the club to seek a starting berth after his 2 season loan is finished.
I didn’t think too much in to the Dinamo Zagreb game as we honestly have enough talk to beat this team even with our bench players. So I kind of ruled that out the question considering the opponent. Given the price we paid for Pjaca I do think he needs more minutes folks. I am fully aware of Max’s integration policy but it is a bit painfull to watch. Its almost like buying a ferrari and driving it in a school zone…. Rugani’s injury really sets us back as I think our defensive line will have injury problems throughout this campaign. These guys aren’t exactly in their mid 20’s anymore, far from it actually.
Lets see what happens in Zagreb, we need a convincing result. Anything but a 2 goal difference will be a disappointment in my eyes. Come on Max you were ten minutes away from eliminating Bayern last year, time to get the most out of these guys.
I think Pol will impress even more than we are anticipating here. Given the age of our right side of the midfield it could not come at a better time. I believe Kean had scored again, its something like 4 goals in 4 games with mates 3-4 years older than him. I’d hate to say he reminds me of Balotelli but he kind of does, except that this kid seems to have a level head on his shoulders.
As much as we can focus on Allegri, we can also focus on the players themselves, to give the old boy his due and our own judgement equality. Some of the mistakes made are from seasoned professionals, which I suppose can be levelled at the coach for lack of conditioning, yet you simply cannot fully explain some of the errors this simply. I am suddenly less bothered by our situation and find it laughable to read talk of crisis! Yet it could well be that a good then abject juve, missing players, churning selection is still top and able to win 15 of 18 points on offer due to the weakness of the league.
As for the youngsters…Kean is a year or two younger than a fair few others, but there are others of his age in the primavera league and squad. The comparisons with balotelli have long been made of the kid and yes his season has begun well. He is clearly a phenomenon in the making.
(found several with your name on fuckbook, my friend, try peeking for me Daniel Pennuto)
We’re essentially missing Marchisio and Pogba from our midfield. Those are huge holes to fill (that’s what she said).
If we tie Zagreb this week then we’re fucked. A win is a must. A loss would be catastrophic.
Most of all, I think we need a win in order to gain confidence in Europe.
Hi there
The other point which I had not the time to cover yesterday when finishing the report was Pjaca…(as an aside, as I am often 9+hours ahead of the european time I am unable to watch many games live, and so I seek them out as soon as I wake or return from work, without peeking at the result of course, then watch them in their entirety to afford me a reasonable stance from which to conjure a review. I could take longer, yet I prefer to try get them published as close to the game as possible, hence on occasion much is missed.)
Pjaca has played barely half hour in our six league games thus far. Which is a paltry amount considering his price, his form and experience for the Croatian national side and his consistent value in both the croatian league and champions league last season. Allegri is bringing him through very slowly indeed, much as we saw with Rugani last season. It is simply his method, and one which I cannot help but wonder if it was discussed prior to the move for the youngster. On two of the occasions he has entered the field, for a handful of minutes, he has either forced a save from the keeper or struck wide of goal. He has made an impact more than appearing out of touch with the pace of the game. The boss says he needs time to adjust yet he will only adjust once he plays more often and all the while he is barely featuring, he is losing his match sharpness.
He made the point of comparing Morata (coming from a strong league with super star players by his side and a lot of responsibility) with Pjaca (coming from a technically inferior league and needing more time to adjust).
All we can do is trust in Allegri and hope that Pjaca sticks to the task of trying to impress in training or finds himself given a run of games to then force the manager to consider him more regularly.
In other news…it appears that Allegri is not blind and suffering from mental health issues, for he is set to deploy Hernanes in the middle against Zagreb dropping the too inconsistent Lemina in the process, with Khedira and Pjanic either side. That seems our best balance, for Hernanes is more disciplined and careful in that integral role of DM, regardless of formation. Clearly Allegri is not going to stun the world and play Pjaca and Dybala up top either side of Higuain…though that would be wondrous to see trialed. Instead expect the 3-5-2 on formation image but a fluid, morphing 3-4- blah blah blah.
As with the rotation routine and ‘managing energy levels’ we must breathe deep and continue to hope and assume that Allegri knows best and judge his efforts this season much further down the line…
Hi all – Apologies for the lack of comments recently, i’ve been busy with some other things.
I just wanted to take a moment to reiterate my earlier point – I’m happy that we have such a great group of people regularly visiting the site and taking the time to comment on each others posts…..i just want to ensure that we’re all being respectful of one another.
Granted, the club hasn;t had the kind of start to the season that many of us expected, and i appreciate that we might have different views on Allegri, certain players etc. …..but ultimately, we’re here to discuss our common love – Juventus FC. I hope we never lose sight of that, and continue to show one another the respect we all deserve.
This site does not belong to me, or any of the writers – It’s a community I started. where people can come and talk about Juve with absolute freedom, always respectful of one another. Thats the only aim and goal. It’s lasted 15 years and it may well last another 15, provided we’re all mindful of one another.
My thank you again for taking the time to read this and your loyalty to the site.
Grazie