Our lead-up to this opening fixture of european competition was generally positive yet very much fragmented. Our victories had been deserved, with virtually zero threat of defeat, though we were clearly very much a work in progress. I pondered this as I researched Seville and my instinct was that we may well end up with a draw. Which would be fine, given the larval state of the campaign and my conviction that we will improve week by week, as the new and old players return from the various Summer endeavours and injury whilst Allegri works towards cohesion and momentum. Which is simply impossible to expect early doors given the renovation of the squad and lack of rest and fitness for many others.
Sampaoli is a quality coach who has performed very well indeed as boss man of Chile. He is renowned for instilling in his team a high octane approach to closing opponents down and also, encouraging aggression and a myriad of traditionally Italian methods of breaking momentum, wearing the opposition into frustration.
It was an odd decision to greatly lessen our creative potency on the left flank, by replacing Pjanic and Sandro with Asamoah and Evra. Other than which, there were no surprises by Allegri.
We began well enough, and for the first 15 minutes seemed close to grabbing control of the game. Yet Khedira failed to make the most of his opening chance, which preceded a wretched move towards scrappiness. Seville had many players behind the ball, were warned for time wasting as early as the 34th minute and we struggled to break them down or to build any steam. This was the obvious plan of Sampaoli, and it worked a damn treat against our industrious midfield.
Khedira had two great chances, other than which there was little to cause excitement.
The second period continued in the same vein. Poor movement off the ball, high pressure from our opponents who refused to commit players forward. Yet…we did manage one gilt edged chance, with Alves set free down the right, who swung in a perfect cross for Higuain to head firmly against the bar. Unfortunately it wasn’t to be our night. Despite a flurry of half chances which came late on after the long overdue arrivals of Sandro, Pjanic and finally Pjaca. Sandro could and perhaps should have won it before the final whistle brought a welcome end to a forgettable encounter.
Player Ratings
Buffon – Nothing to report. 6
Chiellini – Slowly moving back to what we expect of the titan. His scything challenge was the highlight of the first half. 6.5
Barzagli – Rarely involved. 6
Bonucci – Attempted a few clever long balls, other than which fought hard, took a few knocks. 6
Evra – Failed miserably to penetrate and was rarely tested at the back. 5.5
Alves – Produced the best cross of the match, could have been booked for standing on a player’s thigh, and winged and whined appallingly when he fell to the ground…without being tackled. 6
Khedira – Found himself in two great goal scoring positions, yet failed to hit the target. Lacked support and pace. 6
Lemina – Ineffective, out-muscled, his distribution was poor. He is nowhere near ready to prove reliable at this level in a position which demands he imposes himself on the centre of the field, and ideally dominates. The effort was there, just not the quality. 5
Asamoah – He huffed and puffed, but looked rusty on the ball. Fights hard, makes himself felt by the opposition, yet still feeling his way back to a CM role. Which will take time. 6
Dybala – By far our liveliest attacking threat, young Paulo worked damn hard, consistently sought the ball, yet was undone by an ocean of yellow flooding all before him and was kicked around as much as the ball by the opponents. 6.5
Higuain – The service was lacking, yet he managed to find one brilliant chance. Alas, it was not to be…6
SUBS
Pjanic – Too late for him to effect the game considerably, though he created a chance or two for others and was unlucky with a header late on. 6
Sandro – He changed the dynamic of the game soon after his entrance, was on hand to defend when required and could well have won the tie in the latter stages with a header which was well saved. 7
Reasons to be cheerful
The strongest opponent in our group came to Turin to defend, to foul, to harass and never looked like scoring. When a team is time wasting from the first half hour onwards, committing endless niggling fouls and for the last 30 minutes deploying a 5-5-0 formation, we can do little but hope for a flash of genius, which nearly came.
We were not outplayed, nor outfoxed and I retain high hopes that we will top the group.
Despite the possession statistics, we were the only team making any attempt to score and we created enough chances to win the game. At this stage of the season, with players such as Pjanic, Pjaca, Higuain, Cuadrado and Lemina yet to find their rhythm in the side, the least I can expect is maximum effort and solidity at the back. This much was achieved. Nothing less, nothing more.
I doubt Seville will improve much, yet our potential is staggering. There is no need for concern. We have not returned to the Conte era when we approached Europe with fear and trepidation. We came up against an opponent well drilled and afforded too much by the officials in my opinion, who were restricted to perhaps two shots on goal, to our ten. I counted 6 clear chances for Juve, 0 for Seville.
Dybala continues to dazzle, even when faced with a brutish war of attrition.
Just try to ponder the aforementioned players yet to be integrated, as well as Marchisio, Mandragora, Benatia, Sturaro and Rugani match sharp, and the future remains bright and bountiful.
Reasons to be bothered
Sampaoli’s face and T-shirt and eyes and tattoos were putrid to witness. He appears eager to present himself a latino hitman or enforcer and clearly encourages his side to deploy the antithesis of sporting conduct.
Lemina was woeful. He is doing his best, yet has not the experience to provide the presence or mentality required of the role as fulcrum of the side. He will only learn through playing, though in hindsight, I suspect that the experience of Hernanes would have proven a wiser choice for this fixture. For whilst the Brazilian has his fair share of detractors, he knows where to position himself and is far more confident and composed in his passing. That role in our 3-5-2 is immensely important. And for the majority of the game we carried Lemina, who was either misplacing passes or a ghost.
When we come up against teams prepared to play the Gentile card, we have not one player prepared to offer the same in return. A player prepared to make a savage tackle, take a yellow for the team whilst making the opponents understand that we are not only superior in technical terms but jolly and eager to play dirty when need be. There was a tackle by Iborra late in the first half, which summed up my point. It may have been Lemina who had played the ball away, yet the Spanish prick kicked through him regardless, earning a yellow in the process.
When we are playing the likes of Munich or Bayern such spite is not required, yet against sides like Seville we let ourselves down in this vital area of the game. It is one of the reasons why I was so keen on Witsel. Not because he is a nutjob, but because he has quality on the ball and is never physically put in his place. Sturaro has this berserker zeal of which I speak. Yet who else?
It is a man’s game and part of the manliness required is to give as good as we get. I was crying out for someone to make a crunching tackle, take a yellow, risk a red, but rouse the spirit of the troops, demand they fight as we are being fought against. We lacked grinta. Which our opponents had in spades.
A former captain of a team in which I played always told the side before kick-off…
‘Make the first tackle count.’
By which he meant, go in hard, try to go in fair if possible, but set out your stall so your opponent knows you mean business. We lack this bite. We lack this fear factor. It comes solely from our technical prowess, not our physical, other than at the back. I do not want to see our players getting kicked all over the field. As much as I cringe to see Alves crying when he has fallen over his own feet and rolls around in mock agony as if he has been mangled by a steam roller.
We missed Lichtsteiner.
Conclusion
Essentially, we got what we deserved. A win would have been preferable, yet a 0-0 draw is acceptable. Allegri and the squad will have learned something from this bruising encounter. Seville made the game a street-fight and we had in answer, only pirouettes and technique on the ball, which was simply not enough. We must learn to fight fire with fire.
However, the bottom line is that we are yet to find anywhere near our ideal starting XI. Progress is the key and we remain favourites to win the group.
Our squad is brimming with talent. We must get everyone fit, adjusted to whatever system Allegri deems for the best and await the return of Marchisio. If we can continue to win domestically and improve incrementally in Europe, this season is one of great promise.
And we have the perfect opportunity this coming weekend to prove our mettle, for the response to what could be considered a set-back will provide an indication of where we presently find ourselves, in terms of spirit, in terms of grinta…
forza juve
This sums up all I’ve been thinking since the game perfectly. No reason for panic, but there is work to do. Lets hope the mojo arrives soon, for this kind of game was frustrating and enervating to watch. We were clearly a stronger side, yet so toothless.
From yesterday´s reaction and not only at this site, some people get the sense of panic, I see it differently I see it as the holdback of true potential of this team. Which is what makes it enervating not because you just can´t play better, look better (and give back something to the fans and stadium attendees, rather than starve them of any enjoyment or ) and get better results (rather than a darb draw when we could´ve perfecly won),
It is not panic about the team having no future, being worthless, or failing on every objective, it is not fear of dropping to Europa League or ending Seventh on Seria A as maybe you or others may think.
It is the anger of the team not living up to its true potential, as has been the case at least from the last 3 years (losing a UCL final we could have won, qualifying 2nd spot of group when we could´ve been 1st, eliminating Bayern which we were only seconds away from achieveing -Because remember Max messed up badly on that game too with his cautios if not fearful substitutions).
That´s swhy I don´t buy the narrative of complacency many including the coach the team and opinioneers try to convey, because although it it is valid, fair, and has true to it, it just seems as a half truth that justifies aiming for the middle and settling for less.
When Max fields a team like he did yesterday i see a team with a mental barrier, lack of self confidence, fearful or pusillanimous to play an open game to go power against power even against smaller teams, if we can´t play power to power against Europa League sides when will be ever face power against power against Barca, Bayern, RM, and now City, let Alone Arsenal or Chelsea, or Dortmund.
TGP would say we are a team on the making. Isn´t prety much everyone in the same stage? didn´t every other team make quite a number of signings? didn´t other teams make system changes? coach changes like even Sevilla did?
Sevilla is a completely different team from last year, if they were on even terms on that one and even had a cautious approach too why didn´t we being home team punish them for that one and make it count? NO, we preferred to get on the same boat playing the coward and settling for less.
Unless we get rid of any and all mental barriers and start believing in oursleves as a tru Powerhouse we will achieve nothing menaingful in Europe, maybe just continuing to collect and grow our record of most lost UCL finals.
I think that complacency narrative just harms Juve, rewards cowardice, lack of ambition and mediocrity.
And you are totally right Belgian WE WERE TOOTHLESS whatever we created came only to player quality. What yesterday´s approach guaranteed Juve was Sevilla would let their pressure down at least on the last 15 minutes which they did, at that point Max shoudl´ve thrown everything even the kitchen sink and let Dybala + PJACA on field, even then he would play backwards and hold down the team. LATE SUBS WRONG SUBS thats unjustifiable
Somehow I imagined if we still had Conte he would have actually thrown a sink on the field, its a hilarious mental image in my head.
In hindsight it is always easy to say what should have been done but yeah, I would rather have seen Pjanic from the start and later in the game a switch to 3 strikers with Dybala – Higuain – Pjaca/ Cuadrado.
Most of us think something like this would have been better, but its impossible to say eh..
cmon belgian really? we are not crucifying Max on hindsight, he did it himslef fielding Evra not fielding Pjanic Fearing or underestimating Sevilla as if it was either Bayern or Crotone of Which Sevilla is neither and not fielding a back 4 and playing power to power, he was just saving his rear end not losing the 1st game.
WELL DONE MAX YOU DID IT YOU DIDNT LOSE 1ST GAME AND J STADIUM RECORD IS INTACT
CHEEERS EVERYBODY Praise Max, WE ARE DOING JUST FINE
JUST CHILL
KEEP THE FERRARI GOING ON WITH THE HAND BRAKE ACTIVATED, THAT DARN MACHINE IS FREAKING GOOD, IT IS A FERRAR AFTER ALL ISNT IT?
I f we always jsutify ourselves saying life is just a complete unknown and we can´t just foresee or forecast or guess anything then we can just place a 5 yr old on Max seat since noone knows how things will play out or what will happen, that is just no justification.
Can we just acknowledge something for once and stop finding silver linings and jsutifications where there are none?
If we aim to be winners we must acknowledge and learn from our mistakes, not hide them or ignore them.
Then max plays victim at press conference, like adarn 5 yr old
WE ARE NOT A UCL TEAM!!! WE ARE NOT A UCL TEA!!!!!!
Guess what Max. got some news for you
WE ARE A GOD MADE UCL TEAM!!!!!!!
If you´d rather save your rear end than lead this team to glory i´ll start questioning you being fit to sit a J Staidum panchina
You okay?
Not quite, 3 years already (we in the fourth) of the same weak mentality crap… and counting.
Management gives him a top class squad (except for midfield, that one not yet) and he whines and complains, holds the team back and says we are not a UCL team?
He is trying to fool and outfox everybody, but I fear he is only fooling himself.
He said we are not an UCL team? Really?
Read this:
https://bigstory.ap.org/article/d80c2d7097384cc0955b042e387116c0/angry-allegri-juventus-not-favorite-champions-league?
He didn´t literally say it that way, but he says so much we are not UCL favourites just to take pressure of the team, I understand if he tries to shield the players from pressure, but having no pressure is just counterproductive and the team could finally settle for less for 2nd place semi or ellimination at an other stage.
He also says we aim to win but which version will players believe? the loser talk? or the winner talk?
I think Juve really does need some more time to gel together. Us fans are used to the team as it is, but the players are not at the same level yet.
We have a lot of new faces in the starting line-up and I count Asamoah and Lemina as “new” here, both hardly played anything last season. Alves is new, Higuain is new, Asamoah and Lemina were no starters(and hardly used subs) then we had Pjanic and Pjaca coming in, its practically half a new team compared to last season.
And this was the 4th official game they played together. We need to be more patient.
Sevilla didnt come here to win, they were stalling time from the beginning. I think we could have left Buffon out of his goal and it wouldnt even have mattered.
A mental barrier, perhaps so, I dont know from just seeing them play one game. In any case, Asamoah and Lemina are a long way down from Marchisio and Pogba. They are too rusty and too green respectively.
I am still confident this team can go far, we just need to give them the time to do so.
If Higuain or Khedira had scored, nobody would be complaining.
As for the formation, it is obvious that we play with 3 at the back because they are the backbone of our team, one of them has to be sacrificed or played suboptimal in a 4man defense.
I agree that Allegri made some wrong choices but damn, some people want him fired for this game, he is a great coach but not perfect either. He took us to our first CL final in over 10 years! He tried something and it failed, so be it.
I dont think we should be angry, any team would struggle with such a defensive minded opponent.
I do agree we need a CM though, a Gattuso-like fighter. Witsel or Matuidi or even someone else would be a welcome addition!
Lol Belgian I have found out everytime I comment something here people seem to think I talk only thinking about that game ina vaccum, like i never watched any other game before, or if I am talking about only one game. So I think most people when they read my comments just don´t get it.
I AM NOT TALKING ONLY ABOUT LAST GAME AT ALL. I am talking about the Juve I have seen for the last 3 to 4 years since the Conte era, rememeber that elimination against Galatasaray? if you forgot I DIDN´T when freaking felipe Melo and Wesley sneyder who ruined our qualification, same story last year with Sevilla with Llorente header.
So when i talk about mental barrier do you think i am referring only to the Sevilla game? really?
And that is exacactly what I am aiming at, why make so much fuss about a draw? many have said, it is not the end of the world. Sure a one game draw is not, but when you see the same line of thinking, the same approach, and the same result for the last 4 years IT IS AN ISSUE. BECAUSE I SEE A REPEAT OF THE SAME BROKEN IDEAS AND THE SAME MISTAKES, AND THE SAME !!!!!!!EXCUSES!!!!!! ALL OVER AGAIN.
Where I am touching at here is a structural issue I am starting to see after 4 games I was naive to think was going to be addressed, When Marotta/Paratici/Nedved assembled this squad I am sure they intended Depth, Unpredictability, and Verstility
I dint see much of that on Serie A so far, i thought hey max is saving all his firepower and TNT for UCL, but guess what he was too afraid and we t his pants to do so.
SO YESTERDAY I SAW NONE OF THAT
– Depth? what depth when he insists with lemina regista, insists with Evra, leaves Pjanic out, doesn´t have Pjaca or Cuadrado from the start? Depth was meh to low on this one
– Unpredictability? At this point all of Europe knows we only play 352
– Versatility? So much for the talk of using multiple setups within games and even within a game, I mean really? not even a system switch for UCL?
so when will he switch system? against Mars league? or maybe not, maybe they are too strong to ditch 352 for a game.
SO I AM NOT TALKING HERE ABOUT SEVILLA GAME
against bayern we had them ready for the coup de grace, but No he went with his protege Evra who messed up badly on his biggest strength which is defence, took out Morata out who was the only one posing any sort of danger or pretty much doing anything or rebelling for that matter, only to put Mandzukic who did nothing worthy of note (thinking of himself as the master tactician of the italian way playing a tall player a high tower to defend, and once bayern tied since he was out of subs -and our only threat forward which was Morata alreay out by his own making- to throw crosses to the box desperately and see if we would somehow tie again).
So in all fairness fine I think we are talking about 2 different things, you TGP and many others are thinking only about last game because what is done is done and the future seems just fine.
Althought the future to me doesn´t seem just fine because it just feels like more of the same, would anyone call a 6th scudetto bad? or a UCL round of 16 elimination against bayern fine, or a lost UCL final fine (hey at least we made it right? nevermind our worst UCL finals lost record).
So No THAT TO ME IS NOT FINE because in each and everyone of those instances we could have done better, all of Juve is to blame for that.
– Against Barca final players wet their pants, “Oh we are facing barca, and messi, we are agoing to get raped if we dont just defend and let em win, and play the sacrificial lamb which we said we were not going to be “yeah right” you wet your pants people, you oculd feel it all the way even Tevez bowing down to media saying yes Messi is the best I am just a mortal.
They were mentally done and beaten even before kickoff.
same story against bayern, same story in group stages on UCl oh no we are underdogs, we area team on the making, lets just Galatasaray take us out and referees who dont care about pitch conditions and that don´t signal anything for us (like yesterdays Pjaca penalty, not even at J stadium) we always playing the sacrificial lamb.
Bayern sieged us and cornered us and stuck our system up our throats strangling us to ridicule at J stadium, all of that because they came to pitch with their pants wet already trembling and shaking without a clue about what they were facing, without a clue what to do, (SO MATURE AND PROFESSIONAL) all of those performances and results because of that mental barrrier and inferiority complex, and an “italian way” approach that has nothing italian about it except parking a bus as cowards because “that looks italian”. THAT is what I am talking about, forget Sevilla, I am talking structural issues here, why? because i am startng to see a repeat of it all over again.
I thought max would take his deep squad and had an approach with at least Unpredictability and Versatility, but above all with winner mentality with protagonism, management agve him a heck of a squad he wastes his talent with a coward wet pants appproach. If it is so Against Europa League Sevilla how will it be against top Europe sides? guess what, same Barca UCL final story same Bayern last year story.
So fair enough, true enough yesterday was not the end of the world, IF WE DON´T COMMIT THE SAME MISTAKES AGAIN
MY WORRY that you seem to think is Panic, is that I AM STARTING TO SEE THOSE MISTAKES AND WEAK MENTALITY ALL OVER AGAIN.
Bad thing is many of our players are true champions and cracks and stars, i don´t think how long would they bear playing along with this cowardice, or would rather leave the team, despite what their agents the coach or managemnet sweet talk tells em.
Don’t know why you think I try to attack or offend you here. I even agree with a lot of what you say. All I said is that too many people are exaggerating. Who on earth wants to remove a manager who won two doubles in a row, made it to the CL final and went out by bad refereeing to Bayern Munich in the next year?
Allegri already has done a lot for Juve to play more relaxed than we did under Conte. You are deciding way too much based on 1 single CL game and fail to see that Sevilla’s tactics rendered this game void of any form of nice football or amusement. Of course Sevilla isn’t a top 10 team and should have been beaten, but any top team would struggle with a decent side like Sevilla playing an 11-man defense.
The team is still new, they played 4 games together and they won 3 of those!
So why should Allegri be fired according to those people, I sure as hell don’t see why.
And it goes on and on, it’s just not the Juve style to dramatise everything so much. And just to remind you, I am not aiming this at you in person, you just happen to be posting whole books in reply to me! 😛
Juve is a class team and we supporters should be the same.
Lol Belgian I had failed to see this reply from you among the sea of comments.
People seem to equate that since I was underwhelmed and vented it heatedly I am calling for max´s head which is not true (specially this kid Alban, what a troll). fact of the matter is I have never said I want Max to be sacked this year, that would be suicide (though I voiced my desire to have a coach with proven drilling of winning mentality for the future say 3 years from now, or even now If Max happens to be that one winning coach, but that if he didn´t eventually I´d like a coach who is proven in drilling a winning mentality even if it were not Max, and if on top of it Max had proven to not the deliver on the societá objectives he should then step aside).
But I understand many of the arguments people who might actually want him out ASAP may have. his treatment or “managing” of Dybala last year had many of us scratching our heads. Now that he won the scudetto people think it proved him right, in my eyes Paulo Dybala forced himself into the team with his talent and performances, I get the sense Max was planning to “manage him” longer, but Paulo and also the dire state of our campaign forced him to make him a starer earlier than he planned. So although one could call it a masterstroke from him, i see it like he corrected or came back to his senses sooner rather than later and opportunely made Dybala a starter.
Is that reason for him to be fired? HECK NO. Still this year we are to a degree seeing a repeat of last year (because “managing players” seems Max´s way) since we have so many new recruits, That has been TGP´s main rationale and that is fair.
But as much as people now started banking on the tight schedule, the Inter game, the thin squad available to him, this game noone can say he got the approach totally right, thats just plain lies by definition Evra is not as aggressive as Sandro and even if we agree Max had no way in the world to field a back 4 (even if he had wanted to) the Evra put on evidence the drawback in his approach. because if you knew you were thin on midfield your Wings should´ve wrecked havoc, and they didn´t specially Evrá.
He even acknowledged it after the game saying:
Now if anyone said:
-Max´s only mistake was not fielding Sandro,
-He just had no resources to field a back 4. hencefoth why no back 4
– Pjanic still needs to gel more and was not match fit) then why so much fuss about it? Fact is noone, ad even here at JuveFc understood why pjanic did not start. henceforth why no Pjanic (until the match forced max to field him despite his Chemistry, and despite his shape).
But
He also summed he was pleased to see:
– We had chances on goal but needed to finish them.
To me the most clear chances came only in the 1st and last 15 mins. And I know that Max expected exactly that. I was just wrong to think since we were playing home we were going to go more aggressive and have clearer chances during the whole 90 mins.
Now I think i finally understand Max just didn´t see it was possible at all to attack for 90 mins. So my final take on that one: fair enough fielding a back 4 would have been a sort of a gamble and he was just not willing to gamble in any way, which in a sense proves me right that he just took little to no risks on this game whatsoever but simply took a standard Juve approach.
Just like a few others seem to think too, that our approach was not aggressive. Take for instance:
https://www.espnfc.co.uk/club/juventus/111/blog/post/2949581/juventus-player-ratings-pjanic-sandro-offer-spark-off-the-bench-as-cautious-juventus-struggle-vs-sevilla
in sheer contrast to most here and even in contrast to even the players themselves lack of finishing was not a main factor in my view. Why? because if your approach is not aggresive but standard you can´t expect many chances unless the other team just gifts them to you. and If you can only expect few chances, you will have a lower probability of actually converting them unless you are very very very clinical and lucky. Sounds just too optimistic to me.
– We didn´t allow shots on goal.
Well if you have an extra defender and the other team doesn´t attack you and is content with a draw you better not concede. i am not impressed with that one.
So all in all now i see it crystal clear Juve, meaning Max and the players had a whole different approach in mind to what I expected, henceforth why I was underwhelmed. Silver lining is next game now I know what to expect.
Now about me I don´t feel offended because you have never been the kind to offend. But truth be told I was surprised for how much flak and contention my comments received. because every single answer and not only from you but from many at the site seemed to have a sheer focus on attempting (and failing) to debunk whatever reflection i came up with as if it were pure idiocy or outright Heresy.
So now I am actually actually shocked to read you say “I even agree with a lot of what you say” i mean really? because from all your responses my takeaway has been you pretty much disagree with me 100% and there´s just no middle ground on anything, and not only when it comes to you but most commenters here at the site.
And you are right Sevilla are a team used to neutralizing powerhouses so it was never going to be easy, I just think we could´ve tried at least a bit harder (with a more aggressive approach, even if it meant a more aggresssive 3-5-2)
Because heck i am not a guy here with a hidden Agenda to troll the forum or harm Juve infusing Poisonous ideas. i am just a Juventino who talks what he thinks and what he sees, and who expects people to be mature enough to take comments and ideas as constructive debate, even if packaged on a heated or polemic fashion simply laid out in the heat of the moment and out of frustration for an underwhelming performance.
Still now I get the tone of the forum and will keep it in mind next time i comment here.
So no hard feelings against you Belgian, I just think your expectations were more aligned, and therefore made it much easier for you and TGP for that matter to come to terms with the showing and performance of the team.
Great summary as always, Gutter! I certainly expected a lively game with a lot of goals, but we ended up seeing one where both coachs valued avoiding a loss over winning. Allegri made that obvious with his team selection and Sampaoli with his team’s style of play. As disappointing as this result may be, avoiding a loss to your chief group rival at home on the very first day of the champions league season can’t be discounted, especially from psychological impact. I expect future games to be more open and even if they aren’t, Juve’s opponents won’t be as lucky as Sevilla were today. Onwards and upwards, Juve.
Lichty or Sturaro would’ve definitely sacrificed themselves to get our first yellow… I was surprised Chiellini didn’t do it, to be honest.
No. The wrong formation cost us 3 points. Grazie Allegri.
Key question as you say GP: what is our best starting 11. What is Max thinking leaving out a proven star player with the talent to unlock opponents like Pjanic, and play journeyman squad players like Asamoah and Lamina. Does he not know his best team? Is there one best team until Marchisio returns?
Too much reliance on the wings for service and not enough quality through the middle without Pjanic. I don’t have answers, but would Barca leave out Messi. No. Their play all through the middle against Celtic was stunning, and not possible without LM. So why would we leave out our most creative midfielder against a team that needed to be skillfully unlocked?
I don’t understand what Max is trying to achieve with the formations and players he is picking and leaving on the bench.
If anyone ehre understimated Sevilla was maybe Max, even if he talks respect at press conference.
He evidently approached this as a Seria A match aiming to win 1-0 and above all maintain our unbeaten run at J Stadium no mmatter what. He had a fearful approach fielding Evra and Asa for defensive purposes without htinking of attack, have them quality players figure that one out. he was only saving his oun rear end fearful of losing, but fearful of losing what? against Sevilla? is he out of his mind?
I disagree with TGP he was thoroughly outfoxed, we and even Rav thought Sevilla was going full charge 4-1-4-1 bayern style, but guess what they didn´t and they played cautious too. Game ended and Max never realized that one, stuck with sam eplayers and system and did nothing just wait for his plain to finally come to fruition at min 75, when it finally did Dybala was tired, Pjanic and Pjaca were too little too late, thank TGP´s reason that neither Pjanic or Pjaca are that well oiled, and truthly so why on earth would Pjanic or Pjaca play seamlessly on a 3-5-2? a system they´ve never played in their life?
One main hand brake or drawback is Juve is forcing ALL players to play 3-5-2 except our Juve converts (Italian core converted to the gospel of the 352 through the years) why? because we are preetty much the only team in Europe playing that damn thing.
I mean i will hand shake you 100% if we FORCE players play 352 against crotone. BUT MAX DON´T FORCE THE PALYERS TO PLAY 352 IN EUROPE, thats just folly
Partly agree SQ, but you overplay how good we are currently. We are not Barca, we don’t have Messi, Suarez and Neymar as a front 3. We have not as yet thrashed anyone since the start of the season, so why do you think we should be thrashing or easily beating the team currently lying 2nd in the best league in the world who also happen to won the Europa League three times on the trot?
Yes they played for draw, but remember that big club ‘swagger’ that we expect Juve to have when playing works just the same for opponents too. Sevilla have beaten some big teams in Europe over the last few years (including us). They don’t think they are the patsys waiting to be turned over by default by another club. They may have a new manager and players since last year, but the clubs confidence in their ability and strength dohbtless remains.
Juve did not have a default right to beat them last night by reputation alone – we needed to earn it and work for it. We did not do enough, partly due to Allegri’s tactics and choices. But it was always going to be a tough match. So lets remember that before we go too far into crucifying the manager !
Core of the problem I speak of is not whether we are better than anyone or not to beat tehm, the problem is we JUST DON´T EVEN TRY, we are like a Ferrari racing with the hand brake on. Even if we came second or third at least the darn machine would show its tru potential, and not give fans and stadium attendees such lame games. Talk about respect, have some respect to juve´s true potential and its fans which sustain this whole Structure.
And you are right maybe I by nature overplay things a bit specially when everyone seems so content and lethargic, like we need a slap on the face to wake up or something. I don´t like talking like this, but it is what I see.
Certainly not playing your most creative player is crazy and does appear like he has the handbrake on. But my thoughts on this is that Max does not have the midfield he really wants at the minute. Last years starting lineup Pogba, Marchisio and Khedira has a lot more energy and steel than say SK, Pjanic and a-n-other.
My guess is that Max is worried that with Pjanic in they would be overrun. He needs Marchisio back, and we really could have done with Witsel to remove Lamina from the equation. Still, he had a chance to use Hernanes who is preferable imo. So minus points to Max for that selection error.
Well if all that is true then we have structural problem, a serious one because we wont have marchisio for long or until nex market or next year, then why es evryone so content and cheerful if we have such structural problems?
Because if what you say its true we will see 352 all the time and settle only for draws.
Don´t know how far can we go just drawing games, lol or winngin 1-0 if we ever get there.
I think Max has his view of the italian way completely wrong and jsut doesn´t get it AT ALL. ILL ELLABORATE ON THAT sometime i promise.
So from what you say our mercato was a failure since we have no midfield and even more, does it mean we actually intend to win UCL a la porto 2004? or a la Greece in Euro year who knows when?
THATS OUTRIGHT FOLLY, SHOULD GET YOU FIRED TODAY IF THAT IS THE CASE
Juve has the best squad in a100 years and the best 13 starter players since 2006, to play a Porto underdog strategy is outright stupid
Max should play a strategy R.Madrid Style at a minimum
I can’t agree. Best midfield since 2006? Never. Pogba, Marchisio, Vidal and Pirlo from a couple years back aces what we have at the moment. We are weaker now in the midfield department, significantly so without Marchisio. That old 4 some was awesome, world beating. The new midfield merely very good.
Many were worried about the midfield being unbalanced and lacking something since the departures mounting up over the last few seasons, and many remain so. When the transfer window shut with the failure to get Witsel or Matuidi I don’t think I was alone with a sense of worry lingering.
The start of the season is proving my suspicions. We have started ok, neither setting Serie A or now Europe on fire. Something is wrong, something not right or imbalanced with our midfield roster. I think Max thinks that too, leading him to go with too much emphasis on wingback attacking and 352.
The midfield is the football engine room. Our defence is awesome and attack 1st choice up with the best. Midfield, no – something is missing.
yes you are right my bad one, yes I was delusional on that one thinking we had fulfilled our mercato objective) and assuming we had got at least Witsel, Management fell asleep didn´t pressure up kid Pogba (you were right on that one too) and oh well we were unlucky we didnt even our 5th choice in midfield which Witsel seems he was
– still after yesterday now i bear to think Pogba (freaking kid ruined our merao with his indecision, playing the confused girl not knowing which boyfriend to pick) was the 1st rebel to this 352 underdog setup and approach and left because since he is all about shine and image he wanted a team with a system and approach where he can truly shine).
So yes you are right our midfield is subpar, average at best, but still Max could complain only about that. But heck if midfield is so bad then why do you insist on asetup that requieres 3 midfielders? Duh!!! kind of dumb isn´t it?
Play 4231, play 3-4-1-2even play 442 if you want to be cautious. those systems only require 2 midfielders or use even only one use a 4-1-4-1 with (Marchisio) sturaro defending 2 wingers and one CAM or dybala in there and higuain upfront
Cmon I am sure max can do a whole better than this
I am completely sure my response to this comment just vanished but you are right, I was thinking for a moment as if we had ha gotten our midfield target (Matuidi/Witsel/anyone) which we didn´t.
So if we had gotten that target Max would have had a perfect squad, but now we have a not so small probelem in midfield until marhcisio is back.
I don´t understand why nowadays at the peak of civilization we think of 3-5-2 as the holy grail of the italian way. Who came up with this idea? was it Conte? Didn´t 2003 Juve the best Juve many of us have seen play with a back 4? what´s so special about 3-5-2? besides if you are still decided to going to field with 3-5-2 then you better damn make it work, but you didnt (not playing Sandro, Pjanic from the start, even Hernanes might have been better regista like TGP said). Ok max you messed up on this one, you better not repeat this same RAIN of mistakes again.
but NO, you burn 75 minutes (playing at home) just waiting opposition to wear off to FINALLY start playing, but even then pretty much your only magic (Dybala) is already tired and you sub him off, and bring some magic but SOOO LATE. At min 85 PJACA came in, you are giving him 8 minutes to Fire on all cylinders and solve all your problems, all you messed up already.
Yesterday max shot himself in the foot just as he did against Bayern taking off field the only quality we had just to not lose the score we may had managed to achieve, at Bayern we lost it on extra time, Thank God yesterday there was no extra time, maybe Sevilla had got some balls since we didn´t and win us the game, well maybe they had o way of beating us, but we knew that since min zero, didn´t need to burn 75 mins to figure that out Max. maybe we could´ve actually tried to use those 75 mins to TRY AND SCORE!!!!
Max earns a 4 on this one, Four only because the 352 did what it does best in Europe put a hand brake on both teams. He gets -6 on all he could´ve done and didn´t
I think the game plan put in place gave Sevilla too much respect. The midfield was packed with defensive specialists on our end, there was no creativity whatsoever. If the most creative player on the field is your RB, then you have a problem on your hands. Which brings up another concern I think we will have going forward, besides Pjanic in the midfield there is no creativity coming from other players. If Lemina is to nail that starting spot down he needs to expand his game and get out of his comfort zone. I think Cuadrado should’ve seen at least 25-30 minutes to create that spark we needed. Allegri needs to be more agressive in my opinion. You’ve gotten one of the most talented teams in the world and we’ve spent a fortune to acquire it. Its time to perform where it really matters, the rest of the group will play the exact same way as Sevilla did. Now its time to show off that brilliant tactical centerpiece we pay Allegri for. The difference between those expecting to win and those who actually win is also the attitude. If Juve is to join the elite (Bayern, Barca, Real) there needs to results and expectations vs excuses.
THE APPROACH WAS OUTRIGHT FEARFUL AND COWARDICE, HOLDING OF TRU POTENTIAL AT BEST.
i am starting to think of Carlo Ancelotti for next cycle. give the guy a second chance to redemption at Torino.
Max tries to makes us the underdog, the dark horse so much it is just so evident and seems so desperate it just doesnpt work, at least not so far. JUVE SHOULD ASSUME PROTAGONIMS not try to fool everyone to be a minnow or underdog. MAX GET REAL
The worst thing is not the result, (0-0 in first game and we still have 5 games to top the group) but the attitude and mentality of the Allegri:
– He repeats that our goal is to QUALIFY the group, instead of to TOP the group! He said we just lacked final touch, hell no! lack of ambition!
– His defensive mindset make Juve look like cowards, who sit deep even at home, waiting for Sevilla to lose the ball and then strike on counter attack! while our rivals in CL score 4,5,6 and 7 goals (albeit against smaller opponents) he prefers to waste 70 minutes of the game on being passive and defensive, instead of attacking and scoring goals! First half was a disgrace, seeing Sevilla having up to 59% of the ball, while we didn’t press high up minute 70!
– Juve should forget 3-5-2 in CL and move to 4-3-1-2 or 4-3-3. In recent years we had almost 0 good performance in Europe with 3 CB’s, that is good just for defending a lead, like last 15 minutes of Semifinal in Bernabeu!
– Mr. Allegri’s repeated tactical mistakes, like away matches to Sevilla and Bayern last year, is a source of worry for Juve fans.
– Pjaca is pure talent and I see Allegri treating him “a la Coman”! Like the french talent, he shines when plays as LW while Allegri just gives him 5-10 minutes as SS! That’s a bad sign!
Agree 100%
If you think he was treating Coman bad, just look at how awful he is treating Rugani. I cant imagine Rugani not thinking of leaving in the winter or summer transfer window. I agree on the 352, it has to stop. We have the team to play 433.
Everything you have said is SPOT ON! im tired of this Imbecile! Allegri should be Fired ASAP!!! there is to much talent in this juve squad than he knows what to do with! and in serie A it is no different all the games we just score 1 or 2 goals and fall back, Allergi is not Juve mentality and thus not Juve material, and mark my words we WILL NOT win the CL with Allergi as a manager
I didn´t want to think that way but am starting to embrace the thought. Pray to God TGP and Belgian are right an the team not only “GELS UP” but we actually start seeing some depth, unpredictability, and versatility and above all winning mentality. Otherwise I´ll be one of the first to start a sking for a new coach. The Squad is there, we just need to properly relpace Pogba and Max will have absolutely NO EXCUSE. LET IT PLAY BOYS LET IT PLAY OUT, TIME WILL TELL WHOS RIGHT AND WHOS WRONG
We almost did win the CL with Allegri…
But everyone wet his pants, he did field a 4 diamond 2. But players were trembling from the start. Those are the kind of approaches I am expecting from him, like the one against bayern over both legs, approach was right weak coward mentality was not, and in game dcisions were awful.
Yeah but back then it felt we would only improve but then Vidal left us. He would have fucked the entire Sevilla midfield up.
It is not only a matter of names, but of mentality. Why did Vidal leave? he said it himself I ahve a better chance of winning at Bayern. He acknowledges Juve´s mental shortcomings, besides he was old and injury prone and knew management would be fine without him, but his attitude and commitment and mentality were top notch on top of his quality.
But some retards would say he was too hot, too hot headed, sigh. really? I dont know why many people prefer just a bunch of standing corpses with no soul playing for Juve.
Did you watch Arsenal PSG? Arsenal was soulless. Many people actually like teams like that. Just go play some UCL soccer and collec you paycheck, the world won´t end because of that.
I loved Vidals mentality. Never say die. He might have been my favorite player at the moment. Juve has always had players like him, people who say we don’t need that are not Juve fans. If you take Juve as club you take that mentality as your own.
Maybe he was, i hate when players get older. Like TGP said last year we had Sturaro who was actually fielded, maybe he could have been of use yesterday. He doesn’t have the football qualities yet he prevented a goal against Madrid in 2014 semi final by nearly risking his life and i think scored an important goal last year.
Arsenal…. i am partly fan of them because of Overmars and Bergkamp having played there and later Van Persie, and they made me very happy one day when i was a kid, but you’re right they play without any life. This won’t change as long as Wenger, who is way past his prime as coach, remains. It’s sad but i have Juve to worry about.
It seems to me Juve has become after 2006 a white hand glove kind of team that just won´t get dirty, either we play too nice or we don´t have the balls to have some aggression neither in mentality or paapproach, either in sheer physicality like Sevilla did yesterday, they looked the more italian team.
Of old in 2003 Juve had a right balance of white hand glove technique style and ellegance while being harsh, raw and brute with players like Davids, Montero Camoranesi.
We have become too nice to everybody, fouling noone, going by the book but still they play dirty against us and them and referees laugh at us calling nothing.
Lets man up for once and play hard both in system approach system and aggression and mentality, and also with italian tricks and physicality
We are being beaten on our own game, the only italian thing about this team are some palyers passports and the flag on the shirt
I WOULD PAY 100 MILLION FOR NGOLO KANTE ahead of defence.
sWAP ANY PLAYER WITH CONTE FOR kANTE
don´t know how much mentality he has or how true a champion he is, at least he is Premier champion now.
WE NEED A BALANCE OF QUALITY/AGGRESSION IN EVERY LINE OF THE PITCH
And the president and most directors are Italian. Juve’s soul still is Italian, but what is Italian football right now? It seems like it left for America along with Pirlo because we barely have any left like you said. Italians play in Crotone and Bologna(correct me if i give the wrong examples). The top teams play mostly with foreigners now. Can’t blame them either if the Italians just aren’t good enough right now.
That’s another reason why i mentioned Sturaro. Italian and he shows it.
almost, and tbh , we were lucky like fuk,
Sassuolo up on thes coresheet at home against Bilbao, talk about playing home having some balls and having a 4 man setup against a Europa League team, maybe we need this guy di franceso, or ancelotti to see some ballsy calls in here. bet sassuolo would play 4 man against Sevilla too when they meet later on over there at EL.
Allegri must be fired!!! i am done, it is as clear as the waters of the Nile river, this imbecile is overwhelmed by the talent in our squad, he doesn’t know what to do or how to handle this much talent, and yes i am also questioning his tactical expertise, Allergi is the classic italian coach of DEFEND, DEFEND, DEFEND! ..that doesn’t do in today’s soccer, we need a versatile coach! a coach with a winning mentality! a coach who uses the right formations and the right players at the right time! a coach who quite frankley ” KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING”
No i am not just lashing out because of our draw vs Sevilla…Its been every single god damn game since the serie A woke from slumber.
– Vs Fiorentina … we scored 1 goal, had ball possession for a bit, then gave it away and fell back to DEFEND, then Fiore scored….then we got lucky and Higuain was able to score the second gaol. Everyone was like “yea great start!”, ” we will be champions again yay!” no you morons that was a horrible start that was pitiful, Juve played mediocre, idk about you guys but juve should not play MEDIOCRELY” defintly not in a league they have by the balls. Terrible ass game…and then why the fuck did he switch in Hernanes????
– Vs Lazio …Again WTF!!!! 1-0 a beat depressed starved of former glory LAZIO! only 1 – 0!!!!HOW!!!!!!! ill tell you HOW! MENTALITY!!! we where pessemestic, again great ball control great ideas great plays, we score….and then we fall back, again a very weak formation sent out with no intention to go for the kill.
– VS Sassuolo AGAIN fucking Park the bus why dont we? we scored 2 gaols in 10 min and fell back, NO!! we need to kill we need to destroy we need to be Merciless we need to strike fear , and create aftershocks throughout europe! again we fell back we somehow scored again with a counter, but thats it once the game was won it was sit back and defend, lets just see the game out
– ENTER Sevilla – My Lord fucking Christ! YESSS! ok YES i get it! A Tie isnt the end of the world, and yes we can still come out first place (Maybe, im starting to doubt that with allergi in bench) But that isnt the point!! thats far from the point!! This 0-0 was the same thing as a lost! Sevilla might as well have beat us 2-0 ..IT FEELS LIKE THE SAME THING. and EXPERTS IN EUROPEAN SOCCER ARE SEIING IT AS THE SAME THING! how in the hell are we going to crack a Bayern Munich defence? a R.Madrid defence if we cant even crack a little Sevilla defence???? How!!!! and especially how with Allergi’s formation and player selection thus far!! somone pls tell me how! Juve is half considered a tier 1 team favorite to win the league next to bayer,madrid and barca, HALF, after this horrid display we probably wont even be Half considered, more like A Third considered. We will never be seen as a tier 1 team to the rest of the world if we keep showing mercy on every opponent we face, Against sevilla we Needed to attack we needed Pjaca DESPERATLY Allergi didnt start with Pjaca..Hos fuck up now put him in at half time or minute 65…NOT fucking 2 minutes + overtime before the game ends you fucking Dick! what goes on in Allergi’s head sometimes is beyond me! Pjaca is perfect with 1 0n 1’s and making space, Sandro should have started the game, Pls explain the logic of Evra starting? he was terrible! after Sandro and Pjaca came in the team became way more offensive….BUT WHY THE FUCK TAKE OUT Dybala????? that made no sense! Why not start with Pjanic? he is our creative guy, im glad he put him in at minute 65, but he should have started the game next to sandro. WORST OF ALL, all this WAS AT HOME! if we where in spain his defensive player selection and burnt out totally predictible 3 – 5 -2 formation could have made more sense…..But in Turin???? Give me a fucking brake how sad!!!
Thats my case for Allergi to be fired, He does not have the Juve spirit and he does not have the Juve Mentality, Mark my words unless Mangment smartly notices all this and kicks him out before the CL finals, WE WILL NOT WIN THE CL CUP …it saddens me to admit it, but it is true : (, our club is to much talent for allegri
Since we are tied to him for good or bad for the remainder of thsi year I won´t call for his departure since the weak mentality was here already even before he came, i just expect hi to address it. He has shown glimpses like with the 4Diamond2 and the 422 and the 442 against bayern, and also the games against Madrid.
Like i said from beginning Juve struggles against small sides because they will gladly take a point if we dont tear em apart and have zero pressure like 352 makes u sit back.
So Max please just go full blown attack against smallers sides and if our defense is that good as we say all the time let it show, or even lets allow some goals while we tune defense up. And against bigger sides have ballsy setups too, more ballsy than they have been, or if the setup is not that blaasy then at least have the players be mentally strong. Isuue is we alway lack one either we compeltely fuck up our approach, cant or dont want to change it during game or players wet their pants,
Also lets earn some respect for ourselves and make other etams even fear us since referees dont show us any respec (yesterdays Pjaca penalty would be called against us every time away from home, or awarded to penaldo, or neymar)
So i wont call for his head just yet, give Max a chance to earn his spot just like all other suqad players are.
And while I blame weak mentality also on the players i think they would have a better spirit if they were not forced to play 352, but we expect the best from them with a system they are not comfrotable with.
Force them to 352 only on serie A, in Europe let them be freaking themselves playing their true positions in 4 man systems like they have done at every other club in Europe and will shine most.
While I am speaking freaking ballsy Sassuolo makes it 2-0 damn they are doing what they are supposed to do in Europe, unlike us.
And 3-0 :p
Also, that’s one of the better comments i’ve seen since yesterday. If we handle out of emotion we would be the next Palermo and will be in Serie B soon. If we don’t make it out of the group stage they will have to think about firing him.
we are simply frustrated Dutch, the players selection was just fukn disastrous, evra, asamoah, pjanic on the bench, it’s just too much of stupidity from allegri
Look at my midfield table up top G. Max had far more talent available to him in midfield the year he took us to the CL final, and I don’t think he had much less talent upfront then with Morata and Tevez either. So the statement that there is too much talent for him to handle is simply not true Gerald.
You are clearly emotional GQ as all can read, which is no bad thing as long as you keep a clear head to enable perspective.
Some odd starting 11 choices last night for sure, but remember Allegri had *much* more midfield talent Gerald when he got us to the CL final than he has had available to him so far this season, much more. And I don’t think he had too much less talent up front either with Morata and Tevez that season, so the “our club is to much talent for Allegri” statement can’t really hold true can it?
Max is struggling because he has a large number of new players to try and fit in / keep happy, assembling a new team with perhaps not all the ingrediant parts of the puzzle that he would really like in midfield to construct a definative 1st choice 11, forcing some odd formations with too much emphasis on wingback play with the 352.
Until Marchisio returns we ARE weaker in midfield than last season even if Pjanic was playing from the start. Neither Lemina nor Asamoah can replace the moments of magic that Pogba could conjour, and with Marchisio missing we are short of guile, fight and bite in the middle of the park as TGP has also alluded to. Hence why we really needed to get Witsel or Matuidi before the deadline ended. We failed to do that, and we are now running with a substandard midfield for a team who have a worldclass defence and forward line.
Point of order: The “no you morons” is a bit uncalled for. I don’t think people who comment here are morons if that is what you are saying?
Look at my midfield table up top Gerald. Max had far more talent available to him in midfield the year he took us to the CL final, and I don’t think he had much less talent upfront then with Morata and Tevez either. So the statement that there is too much talent for him to handle is simply not true.
im referring to the fact that he isn’t deploying the players in the correct position because he is to scared to deviate from a 3-5-2 formation Cudrado no where to be seen? Rugani no where to be seen? Pjanic as Regista? Vidal leaving because he preferred Marchisio? i know to many italian juve fans and non italian juve fans alike feel Marchisio is like a god, but quite frankley imo Vidal is Far superior of a player in quality and technique and mentality than Marchisio (i mean that with no disrespect just trying to be frank) Cuadrado on the bench! in a game like this? Pjaca coming in at 88 minute plus overtime? for about 3 games in a row now? its clear he hasn’t figured out a proper formation for the team, whats getting me is that he is running out of time very quickly to experiment with formations and roles, and what bothers me even more is that he isn’t even experimenting he is playing it safe game after game against minuscule opponents, its clear that this influx of great new talent in the form of Higuain,Pjaca, Cuadrado, Pjanic and Alves are costing him headaches, he is bashing his head in the wall to assimilate them with Khedira, Mandzukic, Dybala, Evra, Lemina, Lichy, Asomaha and Marchisio, quite frankly it’s that Allergi isnt comfortable playing attacking football and this whole Mercato was attack minded, thats why i say “its to much tallent for him to handle” because he isn’t an attacking guy, he is a park the bus kind of guy
Also in other news, Pogba is playing in De Kuip right now against Feyenoord and is unable to impress against the Dutch team.
Dumb United plays him out fo position as CDM in a 4231, I dont think Paul saw that one coming lol. Do your homework boy before making multimillion dollar and career definin decisions. KID
In a few years he will play at Nice feeding balls to Balotelli xD
I don´t wish him bad, i just don´t care about him anyomre. He made his decisions, have him face em. pastures always seem greener on the other side. Very often they are just not.
We juve are not making our sneither look or be much greener
Indeed another horrible performance from Pogs. He really is going to be under pressure soon if he doesn’t perk up, but having said that he has been shown a huge amount of slack for someone who was a new world record transfer. It won’t last though. The press in England will be on his back soon enough.
As one person quiped on a tweet tonight, “If I buy the most expensive car in the world should it not drive perfectly from day one”. Yes, pretty much it should.
Well ferrari and lamborghini got away with it for years! making crap cars….Awesome looking but quite frankly peices of shit that where very unreliable, and the dumb rich europeans and americans never complained; till the japanese in their exotic brilliance decided to enter the scene with a marvelous Toyota Mr2 and the fucking masterpiece, monalisa equivelent that is the Honda NSX…then Ferrari and Lambo stepped up their game and made more reliable super cars
I am glad for the deluge of comments yet appalled by the high volume of what I cannot help but perceive as either puerile or fair weather supporters with little knowledge of the game jumping from headline to headline and cherry picking what they feel is the most accurate condemnation.
Allegri has taken us to two domestic doubles, a champions league final, an unlucky and undeserved knock-out exit to Munich and he presided over one of the greatest recoveries in Serie A history last term. And people are calling for his head after starting Serie A with 3 wins on the trot and drawing 0-0 at home to a well drilled, rough as fuck Seville side who have won the europa league the last three seasons and have the ultra successful Sampaoli encouraging them to become dogs of war…childish exuberance perhaps or plain idiocy? I hope it is more the former.
Allegri is the coach. His selection may well be questionable, yet he sees the players every day, we do not. Once the players are on the pitch, they have a responsibility to perform, to honour the badge, to give their all for the cause. How many of our players did that on Wednesday eve? Regardless of the selection, we were always going to play 3-5-2 (Allegri may well transition through the season but given the absence of key players, the late return of many others and the influx of new recruits, it made perfect sense to rely early doors upon what we know works, which is the 3-5-2) and yes perhaps Pjanic and Sandro would have made a difference had they begun, but the fact remains we created at least 4 great chances, several other half chances. I do not blame Allegri, nor do I blame Higuain or Sandro for missing what seemed fairly simple headers, or Khedira who on another day would have put away both of his chances. I blame nobody for such is my love for the club, 24 years in the making now, that I win with the club, draw with the club, lose with the club…its the first of 6 games. All of the remaining 5 are winnable and we have such huge room for improvement, when we recover players from injury, when the new recruits have been given a chance to integrate. Comparing this stage of the season to last brings me far more confidence…
The following players are not yet close to match sharpness, due to returning/arriving late from summer excursions on the field, recovering from injury or barely featuring last year-
Higuain, Pjanic, Pjaca, Cuadrado, Alves, Lemina, Asamoah.
We remain without-
Mandragora, Sturaro, Marchisio.
I would suggest at least five of our ideal starting XI are either lacking match sharpness or unavailable. And so how the devil can Allegri field his ideal starting XI?
The only risk he has taken which has bothered me, yet I understand, is the exclusion of Stephan Lichsteiner from the European squad. Though it made sense, given our dearth of available DMs and from some angles – a surplus of those able to be deployed on the right flank.
I find it pathetic and churlish to read anyone who seriously calls themselves a juventino broaching the dismissal of a coach who has brought us closer to the top honours and a magnificent treble than any manager since 2003, and has begun the season with 3 victories and a draw. Yet perhaps those same ‘fans’ consider the marvelous road to the final in 2015 the work of the players not Allegri, and yet against Seville, it was Allegri to blame, not the players…
forza juve
Top class midfielders available to Allegri…
2014 season – Pogba, Pirlo, Vidal, Marchisio
2015 season – Pogba, Khedeira, Marchisio
Currently – Khedeira, Pjanic
Hard, to understand why he’s not playing Pjanic, but unreasonable and unfair to blame Max for the drop in the quality and quantity in midfield available to him right now. Last night for most of the match we had a world beating defence and world class strike force linked together by an average midfield. There is no magic there at the moment, and I can only assume Max thinks that adding some magic with Pjanic might make it vulnerable to be overrun?
Without a good gritty DM or Marchisio back in place I can understand that fear.
dar ill give you an excerpt of somehting that maybe could Justify Max slightly.
saw it at another forum, it reads:
“Players Rotations
The only reason for Allegri not to start Pjanic and Sandro is to rotate the players. He wants to manage the energy of the players, since we have 7 games to play in the span of 3 weeks.
We have three league games in the next 9 days before our away UCL game against Dynamo: Merda (away), Cagliari (home), and Palermo (away).
In these three league games, I expect almost every player in our starting 11 to be rested at least once.
Against Inter, I expect Chiellini and Khedira to be rested. Allegri will keep it safe by playing Lichtsteiner in RWB” (mass19)
And like TGP says maybe Pjanic maybe wasn´t match fit or 100% still that doesn´t make me rollback on eevrything I have claimed here.
Yes, it’s possible Seb. Max obviously thought the midfield / formation he picked last night was enough to get the win. There is no way he is stupid or inexperienced enough to setup to accept a draw. Forcing extra pressure on harder away matches to win would be madness, and something he would not do.
I know people are frustrated by last night, I am too. But some comments and theories on here are verging on insanity!
Max is a great coach, less gung-ho than Conte, but tactically more astute. We will pick up, and when Marchisio comes back I am sure we will see a big pickup, and a 1st choice of SK, MP and CM starting most matches. They can be played most matches, it’s not so tough a season physically in Serie A with only 1 cup competition and the xmas break.
Interesting to hear from you TGP. i am a bit surprised you don´t seem to be giving us dissenters much credit pretty much on anything, i am a bit let down to see that.
If anything you must not be worried at all since Max seems to be doing everything just fine in your judgement: Being that the case I politely invite you to ignore any of us who may not be as calm and content.
2016/17 Juve is not even standing where it was after last year ended. If Max Allegri is not a coach that can instill a true winning mentality and give Juve a Europe face, a Juve performance worthy of Europe THIS YEAR to this team, I think he is just making us lose time and we should look for a coach who can.
Juve is a team that has improved and evolved every year and has left behind many people behind in the process
– Del neri, Ferrara, Krasic, Giovinco, Vucinic era is gone. Italian core remained
– Conte, Vidal, Pirlo, Tevez era is gone too. Italian core remained
– Right now we are in Allegri era with almost entire new squad of foreigners. Italian core still remains
– In a few years italian core will be vastly or completely different. and the manager spot is a question mark.
Through the years many names and faces have gone by and only Juve is what still remains. Why? because eevrytime Juve has made a step forward and evolved natural selection has led to some persons not being anymore what the club needs.
If by chance you didn´t read my take on Allegri I´ll sum it up. I said give Max maybe a couple years to prove he is worthy of the job.
-1st year he inherited a team in Conte´s likeness
– Last year he still didn´t have all players needed to make a squad in his likeness
– This year if we had gotten our midfield target [and am not talking witsel, am talking Kante (was out of our league at this point $ wise) Mascherano,Isco, Mkhytarian, Matuidi, Witsel) I SERIOUSLY THINK WE SHOULD RESCUE ALEXIS SANCHEZ FROM SOULLESS ARSENAL next summer.] Max would have no excuse to finally lay HIS Juventus, not Conte´s not anyone´s but HIS.
So I say give him this year and next but if he happens to be left behind by Juve´s evolution and Juve´s demands then please Max politely step aside and make way for anyone who may suit not only this year´s, and next year´s Juve´s demands, but the ones Juve happens to have then.. because since Agnelli/Conte/Marotta shakeup Juve has evolved every single year and this years demands are much higher than last years demands. And that will continue to leave people behind.
When you recount all of Max achievements true we must be thankful for what he has given Juve up to last year, but that doesn´t mean the stakes, objectives, expectations, and requirements this year for Juve and therefore for him have not shifted one step forward. This year pressure is on him to deliver more.
Sure Max has given us a lot, but he has had a lot of resources to work with too. And when it comes to Europe I disagree with you on my measure of success. In each and every one of those instances you count as success, to me they all have a taste that we coul´d have done much more if we were more ballsy, if we took more risks, if we had a much stronger and winning mentality.
Since I fell in love with Juve circa 1998/99 I just have higher than average expectations from this club. Anyone can call me a false Juventino, a winning party Juventino.
I don´t give a damn what anyone thinks. in my eyes I am true as Juventino as anyone can get. I think this club was born for greatness not to settle for second place or settle for less, not to be asacrificil lamb, a participant, or an animator.
In my eyes Juve was born to rule the world of football and be the greatest soccer club in history, be it 10 50 or a 100 years from now, thing is I´d like to see it before I die. So as long as I live I will think and expect, and demand from anyone God has blessed with being part of Juve to live up to Juve´s highest standard or please pack up and leave.
care to know what I care to think our record of most lost UCL finals shuld come to. To being the team with the most UCL finals and one day have more UCL´s won than lost and make R.Madrid´s cabinet look amateur, meke it look like as merely a team of an age, not the team of all ages, that title belongs to us Juve. Specially since our cabinet is much deeper than Madrid´s, they only have UCL´s to show for, freaking amateurs.
We have much more titles than any other club in history besides that short sighted media focus on UCL (graphic attached). But still that doesn´t mean we don´t have to go all in to win it because today it is the latest showdown arena, Juve can´t wuss away from that challenge.
People nowadays call us zebras, fuck the zebras our Badge displays a bull and we have to take that bull by the horns take that UCL bull by the horns and freaking ride it till we take it to the ground.
Do you think i care about Sevilla? Sevilla should be just a one stop job a one day job not a stone on our shoe every game of every draw. Dismiss em Sevilla peasants like Barca or Bayern or even Dortmund did yesterday, even if not 3-0 at least on this day an age make it freaking 3-0 not a lame draw. If that is not our aim I don´t what a Juventino is supposed to be then.
So I think that is where our disagreements lie, I think we have different expectations and different measures of success.
Societá objectives are clear:
AT HOME
Deliver 6th scudetoo 1st and foremost
IN UCL
-Short term aim to top group, qualify at minimum, then longer term
– Long term aim to win UCL, get far at a minimum.
Like I said in one of my comments some may call a 6th scudetto + another lost UCL final or getting far success. I WON´T .
I have long admired the work you do and your posts for the thorough research you conduct and the focus you take on facts nased on arguments rather than baseless talk. Also because of the calmness and balance you convey on every post, but I just don´t agree with you on this one TGP, In my mind Max has to be more aggressive no doubt. There´s plenty to do I don´t expect him to do it all in one day, but I must see continuos improvement, and specially a much deepper drill down on winning mentality on every single member of the Juventus family.
TACTICS
I have a question for you TGP. I think tactical setups are no indifferent to that cycle nature and come and go with the years, that they come and go in cycles. That initially come to the fore, then become mainstream for many years, and then decline and are replaced by other systems or approaches. I mean Juve just doesn´t play 4-4-2 anyomore for a reson like they did in 2003 right?
So my question for you is at what point in the 3-5-2 effectiveness cycle do you think we are currently at? early, mid or late cycle?
My question is how long do you think 3-5-2 will last? Since you seem to be the most knowledgeable guy around here, why don´t you explain to the rest of us who are not so knowledgeable what is so special about the 3-5-2 and its interpretation of the italian way that even the Azzurra has now adopted it?, what is that which seemingly a few of us are just missing?
Because if you remember around Bayerns 1st leg time last year I literally said 4 man defence is shaky, 3-5-2 is rock solid” because I believed and I was the one happy we reverted back to it last year because the team didn´t seem ready to play 4 man back (because we just didnt have the players, nor the time to experiment after the losing Pirlo Vidal and even Llorente trauma) and record matching 5th straight scudetto seemed in jeopardy.
But since then I have started to shift my thinking. i am starting to believe 3-5-2 is not good enough for Europe. And evry time I see 3-5-2 and I see 4 man setups in Europe I am starting to get more and more convinced about it.
Now that I think of it do you think we could go all the way and win UCL playing only 3-5-2? Because I am serious if you did enlighten me to a point you actually convinced me on that one sure I would tone down and just have hope, confidence on Max´s job and even chill like it is my takeaway you are suggesting us all at the forum to do.
i have another question to you TGP maybe it sound childish to you but lets do a little exercise i said I think this Juve is a ferrari running with the hand brake on. I think management (scuderia) provided Max (race chief) a darn good, a top class machine with darn good pilots (players). Do you think I am wrong to say Juve yesterday seemed held up? That they seemed very conservative, and not ambitious enough in the approach being actually playing at home?
Because I see it like this 3-5-2 is an aggressive approach in serie A where you can actually control and siege and corner the other team, but in Europe specially spanish teams and specially a good one don´t let you do that since they are so used to trying powerhouses like Barca or Bayern to not control them that Juve is just more of the same for them specially if we use 3-5-2
Because i think 4 man defence doesnt give you as much game control unless you are barca or Bayern, but rather lets you hit hard here and there like Dortmund or R.Madrid do so even if you dont control the goal for 90 mins When you hit hard you hit harder tahn with 3-5-2.
To me 3-5-2 works like a drop of water that cracks opposition on consistence (when they get tired) while a 4 man setup hits like a knife that if you land it can either make a cut or a full stab so that ir becomes lethal at any point in a game even if you have no game control because it is a more open or a more back and forth setup where the other team sees more space on your end and dares attack you more therefore leaving more openings, so more openings give you a better opportunity to score anytime and therefore matches become more like la liga or premier matches which are open and entertaining:
While in a 3-5-2 you don´t give space and if the other team just doesn´t attack you like yesterday there´s also no space for you like it happens in Serie A so that unless the other team is cornered and makes mistakes at the back out of pressure or you are creation wise very sharp and very clinical upfront you wont crack that nut open only until the last 15 mins of the game when opposition is tired and makes mistakes.
.
Max has 1st option or 1st refusal to remain Juventus coach
I hope you understand my concerns are aimed at the grand scheme of things and not particular match that as I see only exposes yet another instance of the issues I think exist.
Do you disagree that Juve needs to get his hands more dirty in games?
Do you think juve had their best possible approach? meaning do you disagree Juve in a 3-5-2 assumes less protagonsm or runs less risks than if it used a 4 man setup?
Do you think it was just impossible to field a 4 man setup yesterday?
like a:
like a 4-2-3-1
Alves – Bonucci – Chiellini – Evra/Sandro
Sturaro/Lemina/Hernanes – Khedira/Pjanic bench if not match fit
Cuadrado Dybala Pjaca
Higuain
like a 4-2-2-2
Alves – Bonucci – Chiellini – Evra/Sandro
Sturaro/Lemina/Hernanes Khedira/Pjanic bench if not match fit
Cuadrado Pjaca
Dybala Higuain
or like a 4-1-4-1 Far fetched system
Alves Bonucci Chiellini Evra/Sandro
Lemina/hernanes
Cuadrado Khedira Dybala Pjaca
Higuain
Sure we have never played that system but if we never start testing a 4 man setup we will never adopt it.
What i am saying is Max come up with something you are the one who has to know better how to lay a 4 man setup, why waste the chance? what fear to lose the match cause 4 man defence is unrehearsed? was not preseason made for that? besides most of this players are used to 4 man setups is much more new to them to play 3-5-2. i dare say they´d fit better in a 4 man setup than they currently do at 3-5-2.
And it is not like they have to learn 3-5-2 fast or scudetto is in Jeopardy, they have donde just fine with 3-5-2 in Serie A, but JUST NOT YET in Europe
And I hope that yet just doesn´t exist, I hope we start testing 4 man setups ASAP in Europe, so fair enough maybe Max needed to field 3-5-2 in Europe to start seeing it doesn´t work as well as a 4 man setup, because even if he insists with it think that will be the outcome. I just hope he doesn´t waste time insisting and gets right to work on the 4 man setup.
I think there is one gaping hole in your reasoning, and that is that allegri doesn’t want to play a 352 to begin with. Max does not like that system; he has always spoken in favor of “4,3, and we’ll see”. His thesis for his certification was based on the 4312 formation, and that is most likely what he will use when he feels the team is ready. Part of allegri’s success in his first season was due to his understanding that juventus is a well-oiled machine in the 352 formation, and not fidgeting with it too much until the team was ready. We know from our experience with him that max builds slowly but surely, and that his goal is, without a question, a 4 man back line at juventus. We have just recently received the pieces we needed in the puzzle to achieve this, but have some depth problems at the moment. You will see a new system, and probably more than one new system, unfold at juventus in the coming weeks. I understand you feel that he should have risked more, but without lichtsteiner, he has only one option for RB within a 4 man defence: alves, who has not yet settled into the team and is very flimsy on defense. Cuadrado can play as a RB in a 352 but isnt a proper out and out defender. I understand your passion, as I share it with you, but don’t allow that to make you overlook the fact that we overwhelmed sevilla. We were unlucky not to have a goal, and they were lucky to even get a shot at gigi. The team proved it is far superior to its closest rival in the group. Find peace with that, and leave the inflammatory comments to the media and the naysayers, as they will only put more pressure on our staff and players.
Huge and impassioned response thanks Seb…which I will get to after work this evening, with vodka in hand and the gaze of the full moon upon my brow. Briefly however…It is not expectations which I find childish, as I have the same as any reasonable fan (namely to win the 6th league title on the trot, pick up another coppa italia and aim for the throne in Europe – none of which has failed as of yet), it is the insane reaction of calling for Allegri to be sacked after we have won our first 3 games of the season in Serie A and come close to winning our opener in Europe – all during which we lack key players and the squad lacks match sharpness in many key areas. It is that mass hysteria routine I find puerile and pointless.
And yes, I feel it is far removed from my own idea of a true juventino to rage and rant and insult the manager, demand he is removed, deem him a failure, 4 games into a season, in which we have won thrice and drawn once and are way off being able to field our finest starting XI…
It seems an insane over-reaction and one which associates more with personal fantasy than realism.
This is the worst rant I’ve ever read (mind you I didn’t read it all) from a Juventus fan. “Shift of objectives, left behind by Juve’s evolution”. That’s just laughable. Allegri is the best manager we could have atm, and also the best manager since Lippi. No discussion.
Lol, `worst rant I´ve ever “read”´ More like.. “the worst rant you´ve ever intended to read”.
Given so probably it is indeed fair enough to say this is the worst rant you´ve ever “read” since the impression you pretty much lend yourself is you are not much of the reading kind, so it may actually boil down to it being the only one you have actually “read”, well, rather intended to read)
And well if you call speaking your heart out in a convoluted or heated fashion after having your team lay an underwhelming performance because of an underwhelming approach (which in your eyes lays evidence for deeper concerns that in your eyes have held back and constrained Juve through the years).
And if you do so but you don´t actually get much of true enlightenment on what you may be missing, not even from those supposed to know better, but only flak, criticism, and half baked answers and even excuses (besides the obvious questioning of you actually being a Juventino). And trying to signal those concerns rather trying to lay them based on reflections, thoughts, ideas, arguments and even facts.
And if I choose to lay it out not in a soul-less emotionless or outright dull way, but rather feel, see fit, or simply put just want to lay it out in a convoluted fashion in order to awake any sense of plain complacency in a way that as collateral effect someone with not hard enough stomach to endure a heated argument, without a will to actually do so, and without a line of though to actually give an answer happens to gets offended, like it seems to be the case with you…
…If you call all that a rant THEN YES IT BETTER BE A RANT to your eyes. Still I don´t see it that way but more like the fact some people just can´t stand someone not bowing down to the same line of thought the majority seems to have without even questioning anything (out of pure lazyness where you seem to belong) specially if I JUST DON´T SEE IT THAT WAY, I don´t buy it, don´t believe it, and others mostly fail in convincing me.
Or what Alban will you actually dare and force me to believe it? or want others to do the job for you (since you seem so lazy) to force me to believe something I don´t believe in? Lol if only you dared. But I am sure you won´t. And you just can´t.
I actually try to back up my opinions with reflections, ideas, arguments and facts. EVEN IF YOU DON´T AGREE WITH THEM.
Are you new around here? I don´t recall having read from you at all. Though I have visited JuveFC only since mid last year.
Do you care to contribute and enlighten us voicing what your own line of thought actually is,.. if any rather than playing the judge in such limited way?
Would you mind to back your opinions with some sort of arguments?
or would you actually mind writing as much as you mind reading before acually making a judgement?
I invite you since you seem to think of me as living in utter darkness to step up and enlighten us all here at the forum with your clever insights.
from your comment i have only two takeaways:
1 – Either you want me to COMPLETELY rollback on my entire line of thought so that I don´t end up with such HERETIC, and clouded conclusions like Juve actually improving and setting higher goals every year ehich is a fact, and Juve renovating its manpower which is another fact,
Heck do you intend me to think juve today has as objective not to end 7th placed on Serie A or reach a UCL spot? or that dropping out of UCL at group stage would not be seen as complete failure as it was during Conte spell that he didn´t get crucified for that.
THAT is actually something laughable. You just call it that way, fact you call it so makes no difference at all, explain yourself.. if you can.
because as of yet your criticism is completely sterile and fails miserably.
News Update: Nevermind, Don´t worry about it anymore, don´t worry at all. i already did my own homework and found my answers somewhere else, and got my facts straight. So maybe just this one time your clever insight might actually be redundant. Still it willl always be welcome and helpful, if only a bit more timely.
2 – Or you are just ranting yourself, although in a much shorter and limited fashion.
Now maybe as a final effort of drawing you into complete darkness I will say to you. If by chance you had ever come to read my comment´s you would notice i am not asking for Allegri to be replaced this year nor the next. But I have said give him time to lay his Vision and then I will make my mind about him.
So get your facts straight if you actually intend to help me out of utter darkness. Won´t be much help blind man trying to lead another blind man right?
“Allegri is the best manager we could have atm, and also the best manager since Lippi. No discussion.”
“the best manager since Lippi” are you actually discovering anything here? Max compared to what? to Luigi del Neri? to Ciro Ferrara? to Didier Deschamps? none of those managers had the top class team Max has. Best manager of last 10 years Duh! Juve was not even in the world scene after 2006 what else did you expect boy if he has had pretty much no competition.
Max has taken Juve from their peak not like those coaches who took it from the depths of hell on the early days post serie B. Only true competition is
Oh boy i think you just discovered the wheel. And I agree with you 100% Max Allegri is the best coach since Lippi. Duh compared against who? Ferrara del neri? Deschamps?
Since only Capello (who inherited a top class squad) and Conte (who brought us back to winning ways) could compete with him. obviously therés not much to compare Allegri with.
Are you really going to compare apples and oranges? Sigh.
Still I am very impressed of such clever insight, really. Well actually not, not at all. Sorry.
Now even if it may sound childish heck i´ll say it. It doesn´t surprise me to see a comment like this from a complete stranger to me. Still I am surprised TGP would actually upvote a comment like this. I am starting to think TGP is somewhat worked up against me from the Sevilla comments (I am a bit let down yet again, but fair enough maybe i was the one letting down first right?).
Oh well, I wish it were different, but, still I am sure I can live with it.
*Final note: I just lay here this answer. I Don´t actually expect you to read it, if it is probably just too much for you. Maybe i actually receive an answer in which I may catch a glimpse of what your line of thought actually is, and based on what arguments, and I say yet again.. if any”. So be content with me answering this time given since I don´t get I just don´t have time to break down for you and explain every single idea I lay down. next time do your homework and read it is actually fun. It may actually also help you harden a bit your stomach for another eventual rant or heated debate.
Seb, I have no eagerness to quarrel and am sorry if you have taken insult from my stance. Yet it remains as it was. And despite asking me to ignore you, more questions have been directly posed. Which I will attempt to answer.
I am always fraught with tension when we play at the top level. And I would have it no other way. For absent of that excitement, the result unknown before the whistle is blown, my passion for the game and club would be greatly lessened. And so, to suggest I am not worried and believe Allegri is doing everything just fine is needless paraphrasing. It is not conducive to level headed debate. Yet I understand and can relate to the angst. For you stridently believe your own passion is…perhaps being criticised. I always enjoy your posts, and never miss a word of your contribution and in some way I remain pleased that my piece and subsequent comments have inspired your own massive effort to nourish the community. I am thankful for your presence here.
Yet onto the football matters…
Judging the ability of Allegri to install a winning mentality, after winning three solid ties in Serie A, with many players still missing through injury, others well off match sharpness, others still to be integrated into the side, seems to very much work in his favour. We were very close on several occasions to beating what was a very impressive defensive performance from a well drilled side of very capable players and management.
Between the end of last season and now, the EUROs took place, which took a lot out of many players who have returned rusty. We also found players arriving a little later perhaps than planned and a little less fit than planned. I prefer to compare the start of last season to the start of this season, and through doing which, we are improved, with staggering potential to work our way towards.
This coach who can satisfy you. Who is it? Mourinho is far from impressive yet at Man U, yet they have signed some world class talent. Ancelotti has taken over one of the greatest sides of history. Barca remain galactic class and have perhaps the finest attack of all time. I am interested in who you see, with conviction, as able to instantly improve our side, after 4 games, when we have won 3 and drawn one where we dominated on chances, were unfortunate not to win and risked nothing defensively.
Allegri has a habit and has been forced through circumstance the last two seasons to focus on the long game, hedge his bets. It is not his choice, just fate. There is nothing to confirm we would have fared better with Sandro and Panic on from the start, they appeared when the opponent was tiring, and still were not able to win the game.
Max has never used an excuse of inheriting ‘Contes Juve’ and why would he? He did what Conte could not in his first season; took us to the final of the elite competition. He also won the double. That was Allegri’s Juve, not Conte’s. The team played very different football, the formation was far less rigid, and players were encouraged to express themselves, and to look to themselves and each other to succeed, not to the system and to Conte, which was the case under Antonio.
Expectations beyond realistic targets sets you up for disappointment. We do not have the talent of Barca nor do we have the spending power and potential with Guardiola of Man City, yet I do believe we can compete with the very best, as we have done the last two seasons in Europe. Conte was able to imbue in the side a winning mentality in Italy, but failed more than succeeded in the same in Europe. Spirit and determination are immensely valuable, yet they are trumped by the same added to superior technique. I noted a lack of bite, not effort…
I do not believe for a second that Juve were born to dominate world football. History confirms that no team has done this. The nearest we have to it in recent memory is the top drawer Milan side of the early 90s the Juve and Man United sides of the same, perhaps Ajax are worth a mention. Then real madrid returned to greatness, we remained there, as Barca appeared with their amazing crop of players all coming through at the same time. This is peaking now, and they remain riding that wave of success, yet like with Spain, it will end as football moves in cycles. Yes, I consider it a childish expectation for Juve to rule the world for now and always. All I hope for is that we aspire to the very top, which year upon year we have been working towards since the 2006 debacle and awful years thereafter prior to Agnelli, Marotta and Conte combining to turn the tide.
I will proffer an anecdote to illustrate my point…
A dear friend, I have nicknamed Fagin, due to his aesthetic likeness to Oliver Twist’s former boss, brought his ten year old son here last weekend. The kid loves football. He spoke of Barca as the best side in the world, and was rather shocked when I showed him first Cantona, and then Juve, and then, the icing on the cake, this-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1jcYPzqKPk
The kid recognised the Barca colours, yet couldnt understand how those colours could be dominated so convincingly in a champions league final. Perhaps a tough lesson to teach a child, but after behaving rather crestfallen for a while, I taught him some italian defending in the park, and after which he was keen on me supplying a USB of the finest sides I have known. And players.
In some ways, he grew up, as he realised that no side has held total dominance in history. Some have experienced lengthy periods of dominance, yet the history of football teaches us that no team has been born to rule. It is a child’s dream, which should end at 10. In my old man opinion.
I also showed him Le Tissier…a player with no pace, poor fitness, little determination other than when finding the ball at his feet, in which case, he had one thought on his mind…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB9HjYmYwpk
I am unsure if you are being sarcastic to refer to Real’s staggering haul at the very top level as amateur? If not…I am lost and confused, for on one hand you are damning Allegri for one game in the champions league, then suggesting we are superior historically to Real because we have more trophies won outside of the top competition for european clubs. Which makes no sense whatsoever…
I never present myself a knowledgable, I simply enjoy presenting my views of a club I have followed since childhood, of sharing those views and rubbing virtual shoulders with my own tribe, regardless of whether we agree or differ in our opinions. It is a wonderful platform here at juvefc (thanks Rav!), and if I need to curb my instinctive stance towards open, emotive expression I can do so, yet given your own high octane input, which I always enjoy, until someone tells me to tone it down, I will continue as I stand here and now.
The 3-5-2?
Our 3 CBs and Buffon have been arguably the strongest defence in the world for the last few years. They are all ageing. Hence why we have Rugani and have signed Benatia, and also have young Romagna in the pipeline. Absent of a fit and match sharp full selection, Allegri has reverted to what we know is extremely solid at the back. Yet the season is but 4 games old, Seb. It is extremely early in the day to be judging the manager, let alone the squad.
I assume when Pjanic, Higuain and Cuadrado are bedded in, and we have Sturaro and Marchisio returned to sharpness, Max will begin the transition. Absent of this, 3-4 games into the season, it does not make sense to change. As results have testified. I have watched every game, and we are not playing 3-5-2 in anything other than on a formation seen on a screen. The movement of the players on the field is markedly different, and has seemed, closer to 4-3-3 on many occasions. Dybala is playing closest to trequartista oddly anchored at RM. Khedira is playing closest to a support striker role. Sandro is closest to a LM. I cannot suggest a formation we feel more commonly than any other, but it is nothing of the 3-5-2 under Conte. Which was military drilled.
The 3-5-2 has done us proud, as has the Allegri inspired 3-5-2 on paper but 4-3-whatever seen on field. I suspect that before christmas we will see a move to a back four.
Yes I believe you are mistaken to suggest that Juve were ‘held up’. I think if Sandro and Panic had played – I did not see Pjanic as fit against a rather weakened Sassuolo – then we would have had more offensive zeal and far less defensive solidity. I understand why you would want us to take that risk, yet the fact remains, we created a handful of gilt edged chances, and it was the players, not Allegri, who failed to capitalise. The team he set up created brilliant openings for Khedira, Higuain and Sandro. So why not demand their exclusion and batter Beppe and Fabio?
I also believe you are failing to recognise not only the chances created and zero threats conceded, but also the impeccable effort by Seville. I doff my hat to Sampaoli, yes begrudgingly, but nevertheless, they were extremely well drilled and extremely defensive.
And so…I feel you focus too much on the formation on screen, for from what I have seen, both this season so far and last term, 3-5-2 on paper is not at all rigid 3-5-2 on the field. Once we have some midfield options match sharp and available, we can focus more on making the most of our offensive talents. Until which, and the season is 4 games young, 3 wins and a draw is fine for me.
I also do not believe testing a never tried before system against the strongest opponents in our group, when we do not yet have all our best players even available for the bench, let alone the starting XI is a fools move. At this stage. With 1-2 games to go in the group stage and our fortunes still in the balance, that is the time to take a risk. Yet not now.
Essentially, Seb…I admire your enthusiasm, yet am rather long in the fang, and cannot see any reason to pour serious criticism on Allegri, 4 games into a season when we have won three, drawn one which the players sent out by the manager had several great chances to win the game, and…the manager has nowhere near a full selection available. It smacks of living week to week, rather than experience of a long campaign fighting on several fronts and appreciating the fitness levels and injuries and newcomers of the squad.
And one final video I showed the kid…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ipl1mInKbY
Fuck it…and two more for the road…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs6WTt7atic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTk0Z2oGzM
Yet no Juve players eh? Well in terms of my favourite players of all time, very few are attacking elements. Yet I will proffer this old boy…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d1bH1pSI8E
Wow……Seba…..what a post.
First of all, I am 99.9% certain that TGP meant no offence – I’m not putting words into anyones mouths, but he is definitely not the type of guy to question anyones loyalty or love for the club – Of course, passions run high when we lose…..and also when we win 😉
I read and re-read your post…….so many valuable points, and as i posted right at the very top, the beauty of this site is that we always respect eachs others views and opinions – None of us will see that game through the same eyes, so of course, it’s only right to question things, if you feel we could and should have done better.
As i said at the top, i find myself in an all too convenient position of agreeing with both sides of this argument – Max has done great things, and yes, he must be given time to make this Juve his own…….has it become that yet? I think it is, especially after this summer – He has the midfielder he wanted to play a 4-3-1-2…..and he also has 2 natural wingers for either flank to play 4-3-3 …..so why not use those systems?
Perhaps caution? Perhaps it’s this horrible fixture list we were handed early on this season which included some tough games v Lazio, Sassuolo and Fiorentina – (Un) Surprisingly, we emerged with 9 points and barely a scratch…..and then there’s Inter on the horizon and a midfield that is still lacking something – Perhaps he was trying to use the bare minimum to get a result? Perhaps last season still haunts the man ! That god-awful start to the campaign still leaves a scar of sorts and perhaps a reminder that for now, we stick with what works to get ourselves at the top of the table, then we have the comfort to unleash some new ideas on an unsuspecting Serie A and Europe?
I’m playing devils advocate I know – But I totally take on board your point as well – it feels like maybe we need a change of ideas. Something fresh and vibrant to make use of all the incredible talent we have in the squad.
The argument to move to a 4 man defence is a good one – You’re right, we had pre season for that – to try and test it – Perhaps the conceding of goals in pre-season made Max cautious? It makes sense to me, in a way to continue with what works until we are at least at full strength, without a game every 3 days……and then we start pushing the boundaries a little.
I won;t ramble on too long – I love your contributions here Seba – Every time you post something, it’s a joy to read through….especially as it always make me think…..and then think again 😉
Grazie amico !
PS…We have never won the Europa League, Seb. Perhaps you meant the UEFA cup, which we have won thrice? And what the devil is this EUSA cup we have apparently twice won?
The correct european haul is…
2 X Champions League
3 X UEFA Cup
1 X Inter-toto Cup
(both the UEFA and Inter toto were precursors to the Europa League)
2 X European Super-cup (Winner of champions league v winner of second tier european comp e.g. in the old days the UEFA/ Inter toto and in the Now the Europa League)
1 X European Cup Winners Cup (phased out in late 90s, mashed into the Europa League)
Hi there TGP, nice to find out you are here since our timezones seem to crossover a bit.
I have tried and answer some other answers and comments from other people, so since yours came in last, and I leave the best for last since you are the contributor I respect most at this site I was planning to answer you maybe tomorrow or somehitng.
But now that i find you here It would be nice to have a more back and forth dialogue if possible.
Overall doing some more homwork i have started to see things clearly, i have come to understand your position, and therefore where mine stands too.
So like you yourself said and just so that you know I am not the kind to want to argue just for the sake of arguing so if anything I am eager to settle this dialogue and move on if you are in the mood for it or I can just write a final answer for you and move on.
comrade Seb! I find no dispute…just different opinions. I considered a lengthy response to your words last night whilst dancing with the vodka vixen which descended into reminiscing over my favourite players of the 90s…and presently you find me haggard and sensing that today could prove the return to the shallows of the local beach. No doubt the water is savagely cold, but our nearest and dearest star is bestowing her beautiful glare on the city, all is bright and warm and so I shall complete my domestic chores, then head to forge a bed in the sand, hope to wade in and survive…yet by all means, I encourage you to continue your welcome and lively contribution to this topic. Wishing you a splendid weekend, cheers. Daniel
WOW LOL Poet when you talk like this I must tell you it is a whole other level, i can barely keep up to get what you truly mean, besides i am not that well versed on british english which is a drawback for me to enjoy the full might of your word at their true potential. i want to try some of that vodka one day and start writing see what i come up with.
Well actually I don´t think you can say anything much different from what you have already said, and when it comes to me after my heat of the moment/frustration incendiary comments I did my homework took a deep look at both perspectives and concluded It is a matter of slightly different expectations and views I seem to have in contrast with those of most here at JuveFC.
I think maybe you all guys are more versed or trained or used to what the new Juve that was born since 2006 actually is all about. And therefore whenever you all see approach and performances like the one on wednesday I think it pretty much falls within the boundaries of what you expected.
i just didn´t seee that one coming and expected a more agressive or risk taking approach, even if only slightly riskier and slightly more aggressive since after doing homework and actually listening to you probably Max didn´t have as much maneuverability as i thought he had to handle this.
Still I think that doesn´t debunk or convince me otherwise on various of the points I made this couple days here at the Forum.
Because I also think there is a broader clash of opinions that goes beyond JuveFC and which i have seen at every other site between two camps, one that supports the current Juve philosophy founded on the 3-5-2 and the italian way of closing down opponents, closing up shop and winning 1-0, and one that calls for Juve to play more open games like does pretty much every other team in Europe (opinions along these lines are those of arrigo Sacchi and also from some opinioneers, there are some examples)
https://www.espnfc.co.uk/club/juventus/111/blog/post/2949581/juventus-player-ratings-pjanic-sandro-offer-spark-off-the-bench-as-cautious-juventus-struggle-vs-sevilla.
https://www.espnfc.co.uk/club/juventus/111/blog/post/2951919/juventus-should-be-using-their-attacking-prowess-instead-of-playing-cautious-football
https://www.espnfc.co.uk/juventus/story/2951624/giorgio-chiellini-and-leonardo-bonucci-question-juventus-fans-expectations
What i am getting at is many things I´ve said these couple days I don´t think it is the 1st time they have been said, therefore my surprise to see many seemed pretty oblivious as if they never had heard anything like this. I don´t know if this is an opinion clash that was settled here at JuveFC long before i joined the boat but if you ask me this debate seems pretty much alive to me, even if it would be fair to say it would be adebate between juve outsiders vs Juve insiders.
If you listen to Leo, if you Listen to giorgio they are juve insiders which don´t take criticisms in the vein of thos laid by mina Rzouki.
So i don´t think it is that much to do with me but a whole world of Juve outsiders who just don´t get at all what juve is all about and why it performs how it performs.
If anything i must have been somewhat influenced by taht outsider narrative because i try to be open minded and always try to consider all possible scenarios, and perspectives before making up my mind or settling for an idea.
So i´ll continue my quest on the search of more knowledge and insight to better know my own team.
So no incendiary answers on this one I hope. With this i think i´ll move one and stay silent until the next UCL tie.
Wonderful read, Man I really need to try that vodka, see what would come out of that.
I¨ll see you around the site. With much respect to you.
Till next time
welcome words, my friend… I shall read with more zeal when darkness returns.
Seb, you intense and entertaining comrade from afar! Vodka is not at all an inspirational drug, it is something which enlivens as well as intoxicates, dampens the mind whilst adding fuel to the fires of emotion…poetry and pretty prose and fine writing, in my own experience, comes solely from a combination of reading well and living brazen, honest and intensely. It is an interesting subject, one I could delve into at great length, yet will keep this short, as we turn away from the champions league and focus on the derby d’italia.
Writers who have truly experienced a vital existence imbue their words with that vitality, their sentences have a heart-beat, a howl, a growl, tears, joy, pain, agony…their spirit has become embodied by the words. Which doesn’t come from a school room or degree; for those paths lead to a very different kind of writing, something known as Professional Writing, which is anemic, banal, formulaic and mechanical.
Hi there TGP
I actually found that pic at the https://www.uefa.com website. since I thought UEFA should be the quintessential official source I just took it as valid.
https://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/club=50139/profile/index.html
Therein lies the problem with following stats more than the club, a symptom of the modern era of fandom which often irks me…We have zero trophies in our cabinet which are called UEFA Europa League. Of that I am certain. UEFA have basically lumped in the previous UEFA Cup and recorded those victories with the closest to modern version of the UEFA Cup which is called the Europa League. Essentially it is mis-information.
My only memories of the Europa league are a disastrous defeat to Fulham (yes Fulham of the championship now!) and tight, bothersome defeat in the semis to Benfica, under Conte, when we really were everything you have aimed at Allegri for the Seville tie…listless, predictable, lacking passion or adventure.
No, we have never won the Europa League.
The Fulham match still haunts me. What a collapse that was… Fulham fans still put a banner up in matches celebrating that! Got Hodgeson a few extra years in club management though, and ultimately the England job. I often wonder how the course of footballing fate was altered by that night….
Sebastian I totally share your opinion! it is all a matter of mentallity!lucky for us, we’re not alone in this world
https://www.espnfc.com/club/juventus/111/blog/post/2951919/juventus-should-be-using-their-attacking-prowess-instead-of-playing-cautious-football
Well, actually i was trying to make two related but separate points simultaneously but apparently many didn´t get that separation.
– One thing is to propose Open games (Spanish, british german style) or closed Games (Italian style). This alone won´t win you as many titles in Europe as the next item. This only guarantees you you play the kind of soccer you like whther you please or not your fans.
This is an item more related to means or aesthetics rather than results.This matters if you care more how you win/lose rather than whther you actually win/lose.
– Another related, still different, but MUCH MORE IMPORTANT is HAVING A WINNER MENTALITY. Having it will win you UCL finalas no matter how open or closed your approach man selection or gamestyle is, and even if you play horrible and opposition plays beautiful football, YOU WILL WIN even if playing like crap.
This is an item more related to results rather than means or aesthetics.This matters if you care more to win, whether you do it playing like crap but being more effective,or wether you do it leaving everyone in awe cause they just saw the best football display of their lives. This matters if you care to win no mmatter how, no matter the cost.
If we are Juve where “winning is not important, but the only thing which matters” and we pride ourselves of being the Ultimate pragmatists, THEN WE BETTER GET A TRUE WINNING MENTALITY (Not an open game (total football) kind of mentality, i explain for thos who may still not get it). OTHERWISE WE WILL WIN NOTHING, OR VERY LITTLE FROM THIS POINT ON.
Despite whatever credibility Mina Rzouki may have she is sample of what juve outsiders think of Juve.
So what Mina is talking about right there has to do more with the approach to games and the formation choice. Which she wishes was lets call it more open, meaning more “agrressive”, therefore leading to more open games.
I would call what she is referring to as an “open game mentality” running more risks at the back in order to have much more and dangerous.
Though i expected some of that against Sevilla I think either:
– Max thinks the team is not ready YET to have more open approach to games.
Or…
– Nor the societá, nor Max are considering open approach to games AT ALL because that´s just not the Juve way. Like Chiello said that more or less Juve will never be as entertaining as say R. Madrid.
So only time will telll how that one pans out.
Now talking about THE OTHER type of mentality, and the one I think is the MUCH MORE IMPORTANT, the one that to me is VITAL, and ESSENTIAL. Is having a winning mentality.
Mybe some think winning mentality means going 1 defender 2 midfielders and 7 forwards. Which is not far from what teams like Bayern Munich actually do because in practical terms Guardiola Bayern essentially played a 4-1-4-1 (Not much different from a 4-3-3 on transitions) and which once they manage to corner the opposition actually becomes a 2 defenders 3 midfielders and 5 Attackers meaning a 2-3-5, sound familiar? 3-5-2 inverted. Which a team like Juve tried to naturally mirror in Conte days fielding a 3-5-2 to NEUTRALIZE Bayern pure Italian style. Still that one Failed Miserably against Heynckes machine which beat us with Fullback/winger tandems (Alaba/Ribery, Lahm/Robben).
So on that match:
– We didn´t have an open game, but a closed game pure Juve “italian” style. just like against Sevilla.
– But MORE IMPORTANTLY we didn´t have winning mentality either. Because what team comes to pitch with an underdog or freightened mentality? so that wether you call it lack of concentration or outright fear you concede dressing room kind of goal like the one Alaba scored against us? Was not that essentially the same that happened against Barca at UCL final? when we conceded at minute for to Rakitic? Because if you plan to play pure italian style but at crucial and vital matches you concede within the 1st ten minutes of every game then let me tell you italian way plan failed miserably.
THE ITALIAN WAY, ITALIAN STYLE FOOTBALL REQUIRES TRUE WINNING MENTALITY no matter whether you propose and open (Total Football) or a closed game (Catenaccio) with your approach, man selection, and formation.
And thats where most at every site and even many at JuveFC seem to be quite oblivious about. misunderstanding and confusing both things, pretending me to be saying things I have not said, and even call it I am ranting. Well if I ever again see us concede within the 1st ten minutes out of shaking legs then YOU CAN COUNT ON ME RANTING YET AGAIN IN THE FUTURE UNTIL I SEE SOME MENTALITY CHANGE.
Most would likely try and fool themselves and call it lack of concentration, I am much more direct and call that LACK OF WINING MENTALITY, WRONG UNDERDOG MENTALITY. or even LOSER MENTALITY. Was that same problem not the undoing of Atletico Madrid in both UCL finals against R.Madrid?
More than closed match approaches or Neutralizing type formations, meaning more than “Closed Game Mentality” what loses you Titles be it domestic or UCL finals is the other kind of mentality, the more important one “Lack of Winning Mentality, Loser Mentality, wrong Underdog Mentality”. So whenever Max implicitly calls Juve underdogs or dark horses My antenna´s my ears, and my alarm sense AWAKES, and I want to read between the lines. What kind of Underdog is he talking about? the worng kind of underdog which concedes games out of shaking legas even before 10 mins of a game? or the right kind of underdog which gives a sense of inferiority pre-matches, only to REBEL and have an “in your face”, a defiant, and ballsy attitude in game with Winning Mentality.
Lots of unwarranted hate for allegri here. He gave us our first coppa in 10 years, and a double-double. The same goes for the 3-5-2. It works for us. We tied against sevilla; so what? This is exactly what allegri has been talking about. People are expecting juventus to go out and thrash every team they face when that is not the point, nor is that mentality and expectation healthy for the team. Juventus has to take things one game at a time, and we have an important derby against inter on sunday. Pjanic and sandro will have played 2 games in one week by then. The other players in the squad must also be rotated and used at some point. I would rather field my strongest 11 against inter than against sevilla. Apart from all that, some people speak of sacking allegri after 3 wins and a tie? And after back to back doubles, including AMAZING performances vs barcelona and bayern munich in the champions league? The man is great at his job, and he has always called for patience. He needs to use these coming weeks to get everyone in the squad settled in and ready for the myriad of formations available to them. Did you expect him to field a four man back line in the group stage of the champions league, without marchisio, without pjanic fully settled in the team, and with alves and cuadrado as our only options at RB? The exclusion of lichtsteiner effectively put out of the question any possibility of our starting 4 at the back, in my opinion. We are working slowly towards those changes, as should be. Max has proved for two seasons already that he has a gift for harnessing new talent and bringing it out for the world to see when it’s ready. Are we juve or anti-juve? Trust the man and let him do his job. And by the way, if you think the champions league is a healthy/realistic objective for juventus i cannot stress how wrong you are. People nowadays think that a team can decide when it wins the champions league, when so much depends on luck. Going forward, we have to focus on consistency in the league and finding our rhythm before going all out on new formations. OF COURSE cuadrado and pjaca will be used, and yes, pjanic will become an undisputed starter, but we all know allegri’s ways with new arrivals. And we know they work. As for the ’15 midfield of poga marchisio vidal pirlo, i have to admit that I am very excited about the prospect of lemina. I hope his starts in marchisio’s place will let him evolve enough to eventually field a pjanic lemina khedira marchisio diamond (with marchisio in his more natural b2b role). That midfield could be even better than 2015’s, especially considering dybala’s synergy with pjanic and higuain.
Well put, comrade and I urge you to contribute more often…a voice of reason is always welcome.
Ah, good read in the morning, I thank you for this comment. I agree completely
“I would rather field my strongest 11 against inter than against sevilla”
That’s not really sensible though is it RAC? Juve have another 30 matches to accumulate the points they need to catch up with any others if need be and win Serie A.
But they now have precisely 5 more matches to get the points they need to qualify / top the group in the CL. Allowing for the fact that we have dropped two points at home against the strongest opponent in our group, it leaves us with tough away matches at Sevilla and Lyon where we really must not slip up again. Matches which won’t be easy. Lyon in front of 60,000 in their new stadium is going to be tougher now than before midweek as we have less margin for error now.
All said, it makes playing your best team everytime in the CL much more important than in Serie A.
You know? That part of the comment has been nagging me since I posted it. I’m actually surprised you’re the first one to call me out on that. I think we would have been better off resting sandro and pjanic against sassuolo and using them for CL and the derby instead. All three games seems a little much, specially considering there is some respect due to evra in particular (hadn’t started a game yet, i believe) in a month of heavy rotation. I do believe that before wednesday’s game evra and asamoah seemed like enough get the better of sevilla. And on paper, inter at the giuseppe meazza is a much more difficult game, considering they can’t field kondogbia, barbossa, joao mario, or jovetic in the europa league and that additionally, they chose to start without banega, icardi, perisic, miranda, or santon. They are going all out on sunday, and if they look anything like what they looked like on the second half against pescara, with banega lying deep and joao mario playing a little further upfield, this new look inter could really give us a great game. That being said, asamoah did not give us the game he gave against fiorentina, and lemina (for all his quality, as I am a big fan) looked like he was a little overwhelmed by the magnitude of this game. Sevilla effectively crippled our rhythm in midfield, and yes, pjanic would have helped us in asamoah’s place. Hindsight is 20/20. But we still should have scored; we were unlucky or wasteful, call it what you may, but we had more than enough opportunities to take all 3 points.
I can understand one eye on the Inter match, nobody wants to lose face by being beaten by that lot 🙂
But I just believe with only 6 matches you must think worst case in the CL group stages. Imagine how Max and all us will feel if we miss out on qualifying by goal difference!
He would kick himself for having dropped the points in this match.
But hey, it’s done and I agree on your call not to be so down in the dumps, and calling for his head is crazyville. So we suck it up as experience and move on.
great comment, and i agree with much of it.
The faith in Allegri should remain – a double double is a huge achievement, not forgetting that we were within 90 seconds of beating Europes best plus we actually made it to a final under Allegri.
Much as I love Conte, he is 60% tactics and 40% grinta – Max has him covered and then some – I realised it in his first game in charge where everything was about 20% faster !
Trust in Max seems to be the sentiment and i;m in total agreement
Wow…….I awake to find a message from TGP to say he has conjured a match report – A masterful read i might add……and then i head on down to the comments section……good God!
I’ll freely admit, i had to make do watching our first European encounter via a dodgy stream (currently on an extended vacation, hence the lack of comments from me here)…..and while i had high expectations, i didn’t expect the reaction that i saw in many places.
I’ll say this – I agree with both sides of the argument here : yes, there’s nothing to worry about yet, it’s still the first game and we contained them for 90 mins – No, it’s not good enough going forward. The result was disappointing.
I feel the club and the players in particular have raised expectation, but with good reason. The squad boasts depth, albeit in midfield where we lack a little vision (pjanic aside) so why the poor showing v Sevilla?
There’s an argument to made for the approach – The 3-5-2 can contain just about any side for 90 mins, give or take, but does it have enough to offer us opportunities going forward? we created chances, absolutely, but perhaps a change in tactics and formation might have yielded a result ?
It might sound like i’m trying to be diplomatic here by not upsetting either camp….but i genuinely feel disappointed with the result, but mindful that we can, and will do better in the games to come.
There was a period of experimentation last season, right at the start of the campaign, which saw some different ideas used by Allegri….and it cost us. Only when we went back to what worked best did we go back to grinding down teams, albeit in Serie A. the results against Man City exposed more of their weaknesses than our strengths.
Perhaps Max wanted to do the same in the CL? Get 3 points on the board with a tried and tested formula, then gradually start changing things – Perhaps a 4-3-3 system or a 4-3-1-2 with Pjanic playing as a 3/4?
I think change is needed in Europe, no denying that at all. The 3-5-2 system will get us a 0-0 or perhaps a 1-0 or a 2-1……but we have the personnel and talent to be grinding down opponents and sending a clear message to the rest of Europe.
Early days, and we’re still undefeated heading into the game v Inter – If we can continue this form in the league and get to the game v Dinamo in good shape, i’d hope we start using some new ideas.
I’d also like to point out how great it is to have so many differing views and opinions, and most importantly, so much respect for differing views. I often find places on the web where people are too critical of opposing views – I like to read all opinions, even those i don’t agree with.
Onwards and upwards my friends – Inter at the weekend is a huge game. A confident victory there will set us back on the path
I haven;t read through all the comments as it seems there are multiple discussions taking place, lots of people with differing views, sharing and exchanging ideas on a disappointing result.
Just wanted to say thanks for keeping it respectful and a big thank you to TGP, Seb, RAC, BelgianJuventino……all of you! regardless of our take on the result, we’re here for one reason and one reason alone – Even though it might divide opinion, ultimately, it’s what unites us as well 😉